The Senedd met in the Chamber and by video-conference at 13:30 with the Llywydd (Elin Jones) in the Chair.

1. Questions to the Minister for Economy

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Good afternoon and welcome to this Plenary meeting. The first item this afternoon will be questions to the Minister for Economy, and the first question is from Sioned Williams.

Job Losses at Tata Steel

Sioned Williams AS: 1. Will the Minister provide an update regarding the potential job losses at Tata Steel in Port Talbot? OQ60456

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you for the question.

Vaughan Gething AC: Tata Steel UK are yet to announce details of proposals for the future at Port Talbot whilst informal consultation with trade unions is still ongoing. I have continued to make the case for increased investment from the UK Government to safeguard the steel sector as a sovereign asset. The First Minister and I continue to engage with the company and with trade unions.

Sioned Williams AS: Diolch, Weinidog. It's good to hear that, because many people in the region I represent are facing a terrifically hard new year. As the workers employed at Tata Steel, their families, those in the town and its neighbouring communities look ahead, the picture is still one of terrible uncertainty, deep worry and concern. There's still no firm news, as you've indicated, no clear indication of what this next year holds for those skilled workers and their families, and many are finding themselves now forced to look for other employment in order to be assured that they will be able to continue to pay their bills and provide for themselves and their families. And local companies also, in the wider supply chain, are finding it difficult to plan, and those whose trade relies on the works and the workforce are facing, obviously, an equally anxious year. So, could you describe exactly what the Welsh Government is doing to put the case to save those jobs, as you've outlined, and retain that skilled workforce in the Port Talbot area? Also, are you ensuring that all developments are communicated promptly, directly and clearly to those affected, because this is especially important as the workforce and those who work in the supply chains live across a wide area—in Neath Port Talbot, in Bridgend, in Swansea, indeed from Cardiff to Carmarthen?

Vaughan Gething AC: I understand very well the uncertainty both for the directly employed workforce and, indeed, for those people who have jobs and businesses that are indirectly reliant on current activities in Port Talbot—not just in Port Talbot, but much further afield as well, which is why I visited Llanwern and Trostre as well. So, I understand that this is a significant employer with a significant footprint. It's part of the reason why we've been so directly engaged not just with the company and trade unions but also in making the case to the UK Government, in writing, certainly, and with Ministers that we have met, about why Tata should be seen as a sovereign asset. For the future of steel making, for the economy we wish to create as well as the one we have today, we'll need to be able to produce our own steel and the types of steel as well. My concern is, in doing that—and we have been very clear and consistent in each of our conversations about what we want to see happen—if we can't move the UK Government, and the current UK Government are only prepared to invest in the future in the way they are, that potentially, I think, sets a horizon for what the company can do. If there is an alternative UK Government that is prepared to invest more, then actually that sets a different horizon. And the time frame in which choices need to be made is all part of this.
Now, I think most people engaged in and around the sector understand that very well. What I can't and won't do is give a running commentary on each of the conversations, as I think that will add to the uncertainty, because whilst the direct negotiations are taking place, they're in the informal stage, not the formal stage, and I think that's important, too. I don't want to give the impression that there is guaranteed to be a large number of job losses. It's entirely plausible that will not happen if another agreement is reached. So, I recognise the uncertainty, but I think that is better than setting out a path where there are guaranteed job losses that are not certain. In the meantime, we will carry on doing the work, indeed, with the UK Government, trade unions and the company itself until we have a further announcement. As soon as there is a more definitive announcement, you can be sure that I'll return to the Chamber to update Members.

Altaf Hussain AS: Thank you, Sioned, for raising this question. Minister, Christmas and the new year has been a period of great uncertainty and worry for the workforce at Tata Steel in Port Talbot, with potentially up to 3,000 job losses. The UK Government has shown its commitment to producing steel in a cleaner way by providing up to £500 million of funding to help keep the plant open. However, the executive vice-president of Sweden's H2 Green Steel company said in December that Tata's Port Talbot plant may have to give up on making new steel and should focus on recycled steel instead. What discussions have you had, Minister, with Tata on this issue and can you confirm that the Welsh Government remains committed to making Port Talbot greener, protecting as many jobs as possible? Thank you.

Vaughan Gething AC: I think the difficulty with what the Member has said is that his last point about protecting as many jobs as possible doesn’t match up with the start about giving the biggest possible job loss figures. And I’ve made that point clear to UK Ministers, including the Secretary of State for Wales, and I don’t think it’s helpful to keep on socialising the biggest and worst possible outcome. I actually think that the negotiations that are taking place need to have the space to take place on the scale of the transition, because the transition to greener steel making is envisaged by all sides in this.
Since I became the economy Minister, and we can remember back to when Kwasi Kwarteng wasn’t a short-lived Chancellor but was the business, energy and industrial strategy Secretary of State, there were conversations then, which had been taking place for some time before, about how a transition to a greener form of steel making should take place. What I don’t accept is that that should take place on the basis that Welsh workers’ jobs are off-shored to other parts of the world where steel making won’t be greener than the process we have now, and actually the potential increase in emissions not just from a different steel-making process that isn’t in itself greener, but then in the emissions cost of transferring that steel to be rolled in the UK. And that, again, is why I think it should be seen as a sovereign asset, because it is essential for the future of the UK that we can produce steel, but different grades of it. Recycled steel will be part of that. I have an electric-arc-furnace-producing steel company in my constituency. You can see it when you walk outside the Senedd—you can see where CELSA is in my constituency. It’s part of the answer, but also it’s about those different types of steel making and how you go on a journey to decarbonising that delivers a genuinely just transition.

Mike Hedges AC: As someone who used to work in iron and steel making, known as the heavy end, for British steel, I believe we need the production of steel from iron into the finished product.An electric arc furnace depends on cheap and available scrap, plus cheap electricity, both of which we know are not certain. The trade unions have put forward a proposal that will see Tata transition to a decarbonised steel-making industry that also looks to keep more steel workers employed at Port Talbot and that will open the door for the continuation of virgin steel making, allowing the quality of steel produced to feed other sites and markets across the UK. Will you press Tata to accept this pathway for the future of steel making in Wales and will you call on the UK Government to ensure that steel making in Wales has the greatest combination of steel-making processes?

Vaughan Gething AC: This has been part of our consistent ask on all sides in this, and it's why I make the point about the co-investment that the UK Government are prepared to make matters for the end product that will happen. It matters about the length of time of any transition. And whilst electric arc steel is part of the future and, I think, we would expect that there are different grades of steel that could be made by electric arc in the future, actually, we also understand that virgin steel, as it's often called in the sector, is also part of what we're going to need. If we want to have steel plate produced in larger numbers to help take advantage of not just the opportunity to decarbonise power, but the economic development and jobs opportunities that exist off our shoreline, then we're going to need more plate steel, and I would much rather that that is produced within in the UK, within Wales, and that would then mean that we're not as vulnerable to other parts of the world for the imports we would otherwise need. So, it continues to be part of our case that we would want to see the maximum amount of steel being produced and in more than one process to safeguard not just the jobs that exist here—and, as has already been said, not just in the Neath Port Talbot area—but much further afield, and what that also means for downstream businesses. So, that continues to be our case and we will continue to make that case with all partners: the trade unions, the company and, indeed, the UK Government.

Green Jobs

Joyce Watson AC: 2. What is the Welsh Government doing to support green jobs? OQ60484

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you for the question. Our economic mission identifies just transition and green prosperity as one of our four national priority areas. This includes realising the enormous net-zero opportunities across Wales from our natural environment to support business growth, good jobs and a just transition.

Joyce Watson AC: Thank you for that answer, Minister. There's a lot to welcome, but do you share my concerns that the UK Government is falling behind in the race for green jobs—for example, its failure to get any bids over the line for offshore wind at the last Government auction? Not only is this a blow to our renewable power strategy, but it's a huge missed opportunity to secure the future of green jobs. Have you had any discussions with UK Ministers on this, and do you share my hope that the next round will deliver new projects?

Vaughan Gething AC: I think Joyce Watson is entirely right—it was a significant missed opportunity in the last round not to have a better and more significant strike price, the support available for new technologies. That meant that not a single offshore wind project came forward—there were no bids made by the whole sector anywhere in the UK. And it came because the UK Government refused to listen to what they were being told by the industry and, indeed, by this Government. Both I and the climate change Minister made clear that this would not see projects being bid for and delivered. And the risk is the advantage we currently enjoy now can be lost. So, I hope that, in the next phase, we will see projects being able to be taken forward. The UK Government have moved; there is a much more significant strike price available now, the support. If that had been available in the last round, as we said it should do, we could see, for example, project Erebus, from the Member's region, already well on they way to deployment. And the Welsh Government made significant moves to make sure that it was consented and available. This is about greener power. It's also about the significant amounts of greener jobs for the future. I want to see those here in Wales. I'm committed to using our powers here in the Welsh Government to do so, and, indeed, I hope that the future UK Labour Government have much greater pace in taking advantage of the opportunities available.

Samuel Kurtz AS: Minister, you'll be aware of the green energy opportunities that lie in west Wales, not least because I've continuously raised them, but also you seem to be spending an awful lot of time in west Wales of late. But these aren't just opportunities; there is an absolute necessity to get this right, from futureproofing skills to supporting decarbonisationso that industries in Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire, and right across the south Wales industrial cluster, are given the very best conditions to not only survive but to thrive too. And I've previously raised the need to look at the geographical area of SWICnot just as an industrial cluster but also as a skills and academic space, given the transferability of skills and the proximity of industries in that region. Now, I wonder what further consideration, Minister, you've given to this, or could it even make its way into your leadership manifesto?

Vaughan Gething AC: Well, skills for the future are part of what we set out in the economic mission that I've already set out. Skills for the future have been part of the conversation I've had with Joyce Watson and other stakeholders in Pembrokeshire, and beyond. The challenge, though, is our resources to be able to accelerate and take up the opportunities that are available. That's why Joyce Watson's initial question and supplementary are so important. It is making sure that UK levers are in the right place to ensure that we do take advantage of the opportunities that, to be fair, Samuel Kurtz has mentioned in the past. To see that potential become realised, we need stability in the UK Government, predictability and investment in our future, and I look forward to that being the case, if not with the current Government, then certainly with the one that I hope will follow.

Jane Dodds AS: Good afternoon, Minister. I'm following through as well on the same sort of issue around FLOW, which I know both Samuel and Joyce are very committed to. And it is about skills. I think I've used this statistic before, but I think it's worth repeating: experts estimate that 10,000 new jobs are needed to manufacture just 1 GW of floating offshore wind. And we could be looking at 4.5 GW going through until 2030, which would be around 20,000 new jobs, which is a real asset for west Wales. But it is about those skills, which you touched on, I realise, in your last response. But there is, as far as I understand it, some capacity and influence that the Welsh Government has, particularly over the net-zero skills action plan. So, it's trying to understand, if I may, from you, Minister, what action needs to be in place for us to accelerate that net-zero skills action plan. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you for the question. In fact, the net-zero skills consultation that follows the plan has recently closed, and it will help us to build an evidence base, and then understand the current position on skills, because there is investment already taking place. There's innovation in understanding what the sectors will need, and as to what we then do to support the development of more specific sector skills acquisition. We already have some of that in place, though. For example, there's a flexible skills programme that I launched last October. It's aimed at employers and provides 50 per cent of the funding to support a range of courses for businesses to help their workforce to adapt. So, it isn't simply about looking at the longer term future; it's actually about investing in the workforce in the here and now to make sure they have the right skills in place.
But you're right to point out that it's a significant economic opportunity. It's why, going back to Joyce Watson's question, it is so important to get the UK level right as well, because all of those jobs don't have to be created here in Wales. And, as an example, I know there's a demonstrator—an offshore wind demonstrator—that's been created in the Netherlands and floated up off the shore of Scotland. Now, that's great news for the port of Rotterdam, not great news for the jobs that could and should be created here in Wales for the future. So, it shows that the risk of inaction is real. Other parts of the world are not just watching, they're acting, and that's what I want the UK Government to do. And the Welsh Government, with the resources we have available, will do all in our power to take advantage of the opportunities that, undoubtedly, do exist.

Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Questions now from the party spokespeople. The Conservative spokesperson, Paul Davies.

Paul Davies AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Happy new year, Minister: 2024 promises to be a very interesting year for the Welsh economy, and a very interesting year for you too, perhaps. [Laughter.] Now, according to the Welsh Government's own dashboard figures, Wales's employment rate ranks ninth out of 12 UK countries and regions. So, Minister, what new, measurable outcomes will you be taking this year to increase Wales's employment rate, so that we don't continue to lag in the bottom half of the rankings for the foreseeable future?

Vaughan Gething AC: Actually, it's been one of the success stories of devolution. We've made real progress in the employment rate, and, indeed, the unemployment figures as well. We are in a much better position now compared to the start of devolution. And when it comes, not just to that progress, where at the start, of course, we were always significantly behind the UK rate of unemployment, with much higher unemployment rates here, you now see that we regularly track or are below the UK rate. And that is real progress. And when it then comes to the employment rate, we are still a little behind the UK figures, but, actually, again, we've seen real progress in that. So, devolution has seen progress; it's about the rate of progress we can still make.
And, of course, you'll know this: that we're affected by UK-wide choices. When the economy is slowing down across the UK, it affects us here in Wales too. The reality of, essentially, zero growth in the UK economy affects us here in Wales, as indeed it does other regions outside London and the south-east. I look forward to stability and purpose in the UK Government, and you will find, here, that the stability and purpose of this Government will match and go beyond that to create more jobs and better jobs here in Wales.

Paul Davies AC: Well, we can see that the Minister is already practising his First Minister's questions by blaming someone else for Wales's economic woes.

Vaughan Gething AC: Well, if you don't like the truth, Paul.

Paul Davies AC: Nothing constructive to turn things around, just political pot shots as usual. Perhaps he's spent too much time campaigning lately rather than focusing on the job he currently has.
Well, Minister, that's not the only data that presents a real challenge for the Welsh economy. The same dashboard shows that Wales is ranked eighth when it comes to median gross weekly earnings for full-time employees, and also ranks eleventh out of 12 when it comes to gross value added per head compared to other parts of the UK, again demonstrating the need for new ideas and new measures.
Of course, we've heard from his colleague the education Minister about his thoughts on the Welsh economy. He's pledged to direct the establishment of a new national economic council to advise the Government on strategic policies to deliver sustainable economic prosperity and solidarity. So, Minister, do you agree with your colleague, and, if you do, why haven't you already established a new economic council to advise the Government on economic matters, like improving Wales's employment rate and supporting businesses?

Vaughan Gething AC: Of course, we do already have a range of advice available to us from external stakeholders that I enjoy good and constructive relationships with. I think the Member needs to return to the truth of some of the matters here. It's always a brave Tory attempt to say that everything is the responsibility of someone who isn't the UK Prime Minister or the UK Chancellor. There have been many changes in those offices, and I do appreciate he'll struggle to keep up, but the truth is that not just 13 years and counting, nearly 14 years of austerity, has had a real impact on the economy.
The reason why we have had the biggest fall in living standards on record comes from the occupants of Downing Street; the reason why we have the highest tax burden on working people comes directly from the occupants of Downing Street. It's fine for Tories to come here and say, 'It's all someone else's fault.' I think people in Wales and beyond know very well who is responsible for the economic future we face, if there is any further increase in the time available for the Tories in Downing Street. I look forward to seeing you swept from power across the UK and an entirely different future available.

Paul Davies AC: Well, clearly you don't agree with your colleague the education Minister, but I suppose we'll have to wait and see whether the creation of a new economic council becomes a reality later this year. Now, in the meantime, the Welsh Government has published its draft budget, a budget that sees funding for apprenticeships cut significantly, despite the Minister only recently emphasising the importance of creating employment, self-employment and training opportunities for young people in his renewed economic mission. The same budget sees a reduction in funding for business and trade support and for those working in retail, hospitality and leisure. There is also a reduction in support via the non-domestic rates relief for these sectors.
So, whilst there is pressure on all Government budgets, politics is a language of priorities and your renewed economic mission, all four points of it, prioritises skills and investing for growth, yet almost every area of the economy is facing a cut in the Welsh Government's draft budget, and your department's overall budget is itself receiving a real-terms cut. Therefore, can you tell us how you realistically plan to improve the Welsh economy when your department is facing a real-terms cut? How can the Welsh Government help employers to upskill their workforce and grow their businesses by cutting the budget for apprenticeships? And how can Welsh businesses have any confidence in a Government that launches a renewed economic mission just to self-sabotage it by slashing funding to those areas that directly underpin that mission?

Vaughan Gething AC: I think people understand full well who the saboteurs are for the Welsh and UK economy, Mr Davies, and it's you and your party. [Interruption.] Yesterday was an extraordinary exercise in denying the truth: speech after speech from the Tories, bemoaning the realities of our budget, demanding spending pledges in every area, more money for health, more money for local government, more money for education and schools, and yet nowhere did they explain where the money would come from. Nowhere did they take responsibility for the fact that our budget has been cut yet again in real terms by the Tories. And when it comes to apprenticeships, in the last year, we invested £147 million in apprenticeships, the highest figure spent in any single year since devolution began.
The difficult choices we face are a direct result of the Conservative Party being in power across the UK. And, of course, this is a party that has celebrated and welcomed the loss of former EU funds and powers from Wales. That was in their manifesto. They welcomed the new approach, and that has actually meant that, in apprenticeships, that money has disappeared. I'm very proud of the fact that I've led on making sure there is a commitment from a future UK Labour Government for powers and money to come back here. I'm very clear that if and when that happens I will ensure there is a new national apprenticeship approach the Tories chose to destroy. That is a solution, that is a commitment from this Government, a commitment made by UK leadership, a decision that the Conservatives will not take and a decision that others in this place cannot take. I'm proud to be on the right side of this argument and in favour of reality.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Luke Fletcher.

Luke Fletcher AS: Diolch, Llywydd. The cost of living easily translated into the cost of doing business, and, in recent months, we've seen that very clearly. A number of businesses from across Wales, particularly in the hospitality sector, have been clear that they are struggling, and, no doubt, the reduction in business rates relief hasn't helped. The Government has made clear why they've made that decision in the draft budget, but what I'd like to understand is whether the Minister believes that now is the right time to reduce business rates relief, and what he would say to those businesses who have done the maths and have come to the conclusion that they cannot continue to trade.

Vaughan Gething AC: The reality is, as the Member said, the cost-of-living crisis translates into the cost-of-doing-business crisis. The reality is that the cost of goods and services is much higher than it was even a year ago, even as the rate of inflation has reduced from those record highs. That also means there is less money in the pockets of people who come into those small businesses, and it goes back to the point I made to the Conservative spokesperson, that under the Conservatives' watch, after nearly 14 years in office, we have seen the biggest fall in living standards and the biggest rise in the tax burden for working people.
The challenge we have is in setting a sense of priority, and if health and local government are to be our priorities, that has consequences in every other part of the budget, and small businesses owners, for example, understand that. Not just because they're users of the service, but some of them are also contractors with those services as well. So, I think people see there's an honest choice by this Government to prioritise areas where we can make the biggest possible difference, to make sure we continue to provide support for, in particular, small businesses across the economy, but to do so in a way that has honesty around it. Again, I respect the fact that other people want different choices to be made. When we go through budget scrutiny, it will be interesting to see if there are proposals about where to take money from to provide extra resources in some areas of the Government. There is no way of avoiding the reality of the choices that we have to make.

Luke Fletcher AS: The question I asked was whether or not you believed it was the right time to reduce business rates relief, and you set out, quite rightly, why now is not the right time to do so when businesses are facing rising costs through inflation and rising energy prices. I think the very fact that businesses rely so heavily on rates relief shows that business rates need reform.
Previously, the Government has talked about its interest in exploring reform, so where is the Government on that? Now, the Government has previously said that, eventually, there would be a tapper off of support. So, you knew that this would happen. You knew it was coming. So, what have you done with the time? Because businesses need a better system.

Vaughan Gething AC: And that's work that the finance Minister is leading on. We've taken steps, for example, on reducing the multiplier here in Wales. That provides a permanent and long-term benefit, whereas rate relief is for one year only. And he also needs to look at the fact, in terms of comparing ourselves to other parts of the country, that we have lower ratable values on property here in Wales than other parts of the UK. So, actually, that's part of the factor about the base of costs.
I recognise it's a really difficult time for businesses across the economy, because growth has been so sclerotic across the UK. The challenge is: what can we do with the resources we have, and what can we do in resetting what can and will take place across the UK? That will allow the business rate reform that our finance Minister is already looking at to take place in a different context. I am optimistic about the future despite our current difficulties, and I look forward to creating that future in partnership with a very different Government across the UK, with a different set of values that align with where this Government wants to take the economy for the people of Wales.

Speed Limit of 20 mph

Laura Anne Jones AC: 3. What assessment has the Minister made of the expected impact of the blanket 20mph speed limit on the Welsh economy? OQ60476

Vaughan Gething AC: There is no blanket speed limit in place. Our regulatory impact assessment of the 20 mph default estimates wider economic benefits due to improved road safety of £1.4 billion, environmental and health benefits from more active travel of £0.5 billion, and further unquantified benefits from more vibrant and connected local economies.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Minister, it's been several months now since the introduction of the 20 mph blanket speed limit, a measure forced on the Welsh public. [Interruption.] It caused outrage right across the board. Nearly 0.5 million people were motivated—[Interruption.] Half a million people were motivated to sign the petition to reverse the policy.
You and your leadership election rival have both committed to a review of the policy, which would lead me to believe that you are now finally aware of its unpopularity, even within your own party. It has been widely criticised by pivotal front-line services as it can hamper emergency response times, as well as the potential disastrous £4.5 billion knock-on effect on the Welsh economy. Minister, you have been happy to go along with the policy to date, surely understanding the damage it will cause to the Welsh economy. It's clear from both yours and Jeremy Miles’s leadership proposals that you realise this policy is a non-starter, and people just aren't adhering to it, yet you plough on anyway. Can you explain why you supported it, and continue to do so?

Vaughan Gething AC: Well, I think David Melding would be very unhappy to hear a supposed Conservative say that about a proposal he championed. I also think that if you went to Portsmouth, with its Conservative Member of Parliament who's regularly been in favour of the comprehensive default approach to speed limits there where 20 mph is the norm, I think Penny Mordaunt might find that she's quite happy with that there. And if you look at what we are doing, we've committed to a review because we want to understand the point around implementation and to listen to what the public have to say where there are specific issues in specific parts of the country. The policy isn't going to get junked; it's about how we make sure we listen, learn and move forward.

Support for Culture and the Arts

Tom Giffard AS: 4. What is the Welsh Government's strategy for helping and supporting the arts and culture sectors in Wales? OQ60471

Dawn Bowden AC: Wales's culture sectors are an integral part of society and the nation's well-being. The Welsh Government provides direct funding to support the arts and culture sectors, sets out strategic priorities for our cultural arm's-length bodies and acts as the development agency for the local museums, libraries and archives sectors.

Tom Giffard AS: Thank you to the Deputy Minister for her answer. In the Welsh Labour Government's recent budget, we've seen a significant cut to your culture portfolio, Minister. It's particularly disappointing coming off the back of warnings from a range of organisations about the impact that those decisions are having. For example, you announced a 10.5 per cent cut for Amgueddfa Cymru in the budget, and that's despite them saying they have a £90 million shortfall in their maintenance works. They mentioned works literally being at risk because of leaking walls and roofs, and buckets being in place to collect the rainwater at a number of their sites. But the Welsh Government only found £4.7 million of the £90 million required to support Amgueddfa Cymru for capital works. So, whilst the Scottish Government are increasing spending on arts and culture, the Welsh Government is cutting it, and prioritising pet projects like 20 mph speed limits and more politicians. For the first time in my life, I'm starting to wonder whether Plaid Cymru were right, because your co-operation agreement partners said that there was no champion for the arts sector around the Welsh Government Cabinet table. The evidence shows they're right, doesn't it?

Dawn Bowden AC: I'd like to say I thank Tom Giffard for that question, but I'm not sure I do, because I really find it very difficult to take lectures from a party that has waged preventable austerity on culture, arts and sport, while trashing the UK's reputation globally. The Welsh Government is now facing, as we've heard over the last few weeks and months, the greatest shortfall in funding since the devolution era. And that's not unique to Wales; we've got local authorities in England, a lot of which are Tory-controlled councils, that have issued section 114 notices, indicating that they may become bankrupt soon. And you will have seen coverage, no doubt, this week, about Tory-controlled Suffolk County Council, which has withdrawn all its culture and sport budgets from there because they have no money to deliver it. This isn't a coincidence; this is a consequence of a decade of austerity and failing growth.
The UK Government has trashed our reputation on a global stage. Do you know that there have been seven culture secretaries since 2018 alone? And let's just look at their notable contributions, shall we, to what they've done. Nadine Dorries and Matt Hancock: when they're not using their profile to launch their reality tv careers, they're publishing works of fiction. They've brought shame to public office and put themselves before the sector. From my point of view, as the Minister for culture, I'm working closely with our colleagues in Plaid Cymru on developing our culture strategy, we're taking that forward, and we're having to do so against a backdrop of an extremely difficult financial position.
And one other thing to add into the mix: in terms of Amgueddfa Cymru and their concern around the protection of their collections, we gave them an additional £5 million capital funding last year to provide some immediate support for that. Our budget this year has increased, in total—the capital budget for Wales this year, for the whole of the Welsh Government—by £6 million. How on earth do you think that we as a Welsh Government are going to be able to do anything to plug a £50 million gap that Amgueddfa Cymru has identified in terms of capital works that they need done? If you can tell us where we can find that kind of money, Tom Giffard, then I'd be happy to sit down with you and with Amgueddfa Cymru and make sure that that is delivered.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Minister, unlike the Conservatives, I'm not crying crocodile tears about the lack of funding for arts and culture in Wales, when they will not will the means to actually provide that through the UK Treasury budget, and at the same time they decry every challenge within the Welsh Government and they demand further funding. It's completely preposterous. But, Minister, you visited recently, in my constituency—[Interruption.] And we can hear them chuntering behind, because they do not like hearing the truth, that the cuts that we are facing in Wales are a direct result of decisions by their Chancellor and their Prime Minister, Rishi Sunak, who held the coat strings for the Treasury while all these decisions were made.
Minister, you recently made a visit to groups in my constituency, including the Blaengarw Workmen's Hall, Awen Cultural Trust. We also have Tanio, who invest significantly in community arts, with support of the arm's-length organisation the Arts Council of Wales. We also have massive investment going into Maesteg Town Hall, a partnership with the local authority, and we're looking forward to that being brought forward and completed as well. Would she agree with me that it's important that the Welsh Government gives the signal that from high arts to low arts—even though I hate those signals—from community arts and popular arts to the Welsh National Opera and others, we need to look to those good times and we need to look to a Government that will come in and who'll invest properly in Wales and in the arts and cultural sector?

Dawn Bowden AC: Thank you for that question, because as I've said many times, the Welsh Government absolutely recognises the value of arts and culture sectors and the important part that they play in the well-being of our communities. So, for me, it was absolutely brilliant to come with you and visit Blaengarw Workmen's Hall, and let's not forget the football club, because they were fantastic as well, both of whom have benefited from Welsh Government and local authority funding. And I think in direct contrast to what I mentioned earlier on about Conservative-controlled Suffolk County Council, who have just scrapped their culture budget, what we've seen in Wales is Labour authorities, where they have the ability to do so, supporting local cultural organisations. And to see the work that's gone on, the £8 million investment in Maesteg Town Hall, and what that has done for the local community, cultural organisations and delivery in that area—that's in stark contrast to what we see in those other areas.
What I'd say, Huw, is, in short, that despite the challenging financial positions that we face—and all of that was starkly set out yesterday in the budget debate that we had—we will continue to work as closely as we can with our arm's-length bodies, and with local cultural organisations, to ensure that we can operate within the revised budget and still deliver the kind of community cultural cohesion that we need to see locally. Because as somebody said yesterday—I think it was Rhun ap Iorwerth—when quoting the RCN, it's not necessarily always about the amount of money that you have; it's what you do effectively with the money that you do have. And those are the conversations, clearly, that we have to have, going forward.

Leisure Centre Closures

Delyth Jewell AC: 5. What assessment has the Welsh Government made of the impact of proposed closures of leisure centres on community sport, physical activity and active recreation in the Caerphilly County Borough Council area? OQ60458

Dawn Bowden AC: I thank Delyth Jewell for that question. Of course, this is matter for local consideration by Caerphilly County Borough Council. As part of any local decision making, local authorities are responsible for their own assessments of the provision of local services that may impact on people in that area.

Delyth Jewell AC: Diolch, Gweinidog. Leisure centres provide benefits to communities that can't only be measured in monetary terms. When they're gone, people's health and well-being will suffer hugely. You'll be aware, Minister, that there's a threat in my region to two leisure facilities: Pontllanfraith leisure centre and Risca hockey pitch are amongst the facilities at risk of closure. There is an active campaign in the area calling to save our leisure centre. I know this problem is being replicated in areas across Wales, and with cuts to Sport Wales, there's a knock-on effect on how much the Football Association of Wales and other bodies can invest in grass-roots facilities when council budgets are diminishing. Many local authorities rely on investment from organisations like these to invest in 3G pitches and changing rooms. What hope can be given to communities like Pontllanfraith, like Risca—indeed, across Wales—that their well-being won't suffer?

Dawn Bowden AC: Thank you for that supplementary question. Obviously, there are two parts to your question. I'm very clear that the democratically elected bodies, the local authorities, are best placed to manage and organise their leisure services. Caerphilly County Borough Council, who you're quoting there, I know have a sports and active recreation strategy, which they're working to deliver at the moment. There has been extensive consultation across the county borough, and I understand decisions are yet to be made about what that future provision is going to look like. But I think to be very clear, in terms of Sport Wales funding, the reduction that we're having to look at as far as Sport Wales funding is concerned is primarily around revenue funding; there has been no cut to their capital funding. The capital funding for grass-roots facilities still remains at £8 million a year, so there is still a significant amount of work that can be done with local organisations, through both Sport Wales and the FAW, particularly on the use of multisport pitches, 3G pitches that can be used for more than one sport. I know the FAW have been very proactive in working with other national governing bodies to develop pitches that are not just for football, but for rugby and hockey, and so on. So, we have two things going on there, but I am confident that there is still enough within the budget of Sport Wales to be able to significantly support those grass-roots facilities in terms of capital projects that they need.

Natasha Asghar AS: Minister, leisure centres are incredibly important facilities to so many people and communities up and down the country. I know my colleague Delyth Jewell has mentioned Pontllanfraith, a leisure centre in my region of south-east Wales, which is a vital community asset that residents are now rallying to save from closure. As I'm sure you can appreciate, leisure centres often offer residents an array of activities. People use them to stay fit, children often learn how to swim at leisure centres, and I know I was one of those as well. I can honestly say I spent many happy days of my childhood riding the waves at Newport leisure centre and going down the slide in a centre that's now been demolished. So, it's important that we protect these cherished facilities for the communities. However, it is keeping leisure centres running that is becoming an increasingly difficult task. So, Minister, I appreciate what you mentioned, that it's councils' responsibility, but as the Welsh Government, I know that ultimate guidance comes down from here. So, what guidance, what support and what acknowledgement are you going to be giving local councils to ensure that leisure centres can stay open, and ultimately thrive and survive as well? Thank you.

Dawn Bowden AC: Thank you, Natasha Asghar, for that supplementary question, but again I have to reiterate that what local authorities do with their rate support grant is a matter for the local authority. They are not hypothecated. The funding that local authorities receive is unhypothecated, and it's a matter for them how they determine their priorities in terms of what leisure services they need to deliver for their local electorate. They, of course, have to be mindful of a whole range of issues when they determine their priorities, not least public sector equalities duties, and whether closing one particular leisure centre is going to mean it's far more difficult for somebody from another part of that county borough to get to a particular area to undertake their leisure pursuits. Local authorities, like us, are all having to make really tough decisions about where their money is spent, and that will be a matter that I'm sure all of them at the moment are going through, and having to consider some of those very tough decisions in how they deliver not just leisure services but other services as well, both on the front line and in some of the more non-statutory services.

Support for Small Businesses

Russell George AC: 6. What are the Welsh Government's plans for supporting small businesses in 2024? OQ60468

Vaughan Gething AC: Our economic mission sets out key economic priorities for the coming year that will support small businesses to build resilience and capitalise on opportunities for innovation and sustainable growth. We will provide dedicated support available through our Business Wales service, Social Business Wales and, indeed, the Development Bank of Wales.

Russell George AC: Thank you, Minister, for your answer. The first meeting of the year for me was on 2 January, when I was invited by a lady called Jaz Hudson, who is well known for making delicious foods and cakes in her cafe at Glansevern Hall between Newtown and Welshpool. She was organising a Better Business Network event, where she invited a number of business locally to come together to share ideas and support each other. I mentioned that I was going to be asking you a question this week, and they suggested a question to put to you, which I thought was apt, considering we are at the beginning of a new year and your leadership aspirations. But they asked what is the single most important change that you could make to support business growth and what is it that is preventing you from doing so at the moment. And further to that, they also wanted me to extend an invitation to you to join them at their next networking event.

Vaughan Gething AC: I actually think that what we could do in terms of the powers we have is all about the skills that people have, including the small business sector. I'd like to invest more in the support, advice and qualifications for people, as we did successfully with our EU funding. It made a real difference. The biggest barrier is the fact that we don't have access to that. We don't have the ability to make those choicesanymore because of choices that have been made about the way that former EU funds have been allocated—not just the amount, but the fact that we can’t use them on an all-Wales level to design programmes that really do make a difference. Whether it’s apprenticeships, whether it’s having people gaining their qualifications, whether it’s the ability to trade with confidence and success, I’m afraid, Russell, that for you, at least, the biggest thing that we could do to have the ability to do that in the future is to elect a new Government across the UK.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Finding staff is one of the greatest challenges facing small businesses. Anglesey's Môn CF has worked hard to build a relationship with businesses to identify their staffing needs and try and find opportunities for unemployed people. Unfortunately, they're facing a cut of over 40 per cent in their funding through the Communities for Work programme, although they have more than doubled their target in terms of job creation. Now, there's a great variation in the performance of these programmes across Wales, but can the Minister look again, and at least ensure that those who have reached or gone beyond their targets are protected from cuts in order to ensure that they can continue with the good work of job creation? I will be writing to the Minister on this issue—I did so earlier today, in fact, and I look forward to providing some good news to Môn CF, that it would be possible to look again at the news that they've been given.

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you for the question.

Vaughan Gething AC: I need to be just direct and upfront about the budget position. We really have got £1.3 billion less in real terms than two years ago, and you can't hide that scale of reduction in our spending power. If we are going, as we have chosen to, to protect the local government settlement, to invest more in health, that has budget consequences everywhere else in the Government. And I think that is the right choice that we have made as a Government. That therefore means that you have to make reductions in other parts of spending. So, in all of the employability areas that I would like to invest more in, in the shorter term we can’t if we’re going to meet our budget challenge. So, it doesn’t just affect Communities for Work, it affects other areas too as well.
I know your colleague Luke Fletcher has talked about apprenticeships, but, actually, if you’re going to be honest with him you’ve got to set out that, if you want to meet the bottom line, and if health and local government are priorities for all the things they do, you’ve got to make some other choices. I’d like to see—. And if there is a way to look at alternatives within the budget, to put more money into other areas, I’d be very interested in seeing what that looks like. As Rebecca Evans said yesterday, the Conservatives have taken more than a decade before they've actually proposed an alternative budget. We don’t just face scrutiny about why we can’t find more money in the process through committees—we still have to lay a budget that this Senedd can pass, and which will balance.
So, I’d be more than happy to look at the correspondence from the Member, but what I can’t tell him is that I have an extra sum of money waiting to be spent. So, I’d be very grateful to see the correspondence, to consider it, and actually we’re reviewing already how our employability and skills programmes work and work together. That’s work we’re looking to do jointly with local government and others, because we recognise the value of what we’ve done, and we’re trying to protect and enhance that for the future, and have a model we can invest more in in the future if we do have a different financial settlement moving forwards.

Vikki Howells AC: Minister, in the run-up to Christmas, Aberdare business improvement district put on an exciting programme of events to encourage people into the town centre. Key to this were interventions to promote the fantastic small businesses that we have in the town, for example through a Christmas loyalty scheme offering people vouchers to spend in local shops. So, Minister, will you join me in congratulating Aberdare BID for their amazing Aberdare Christmas festival? But more generally, what sort of interventions are you and colleagues across Welsh Government taking to support and develop those small businesses that we have in our town centres?

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you. Some Members will know what a BID involves. It involves a bid from local businesses working with their local authorities to then look at priorities for investing in small businesses, and if successful there'll be a levy that everyone pays that then allows them to invest in those priorities. And 'shop local' schemes are very much a part of that. What we will continue to do is to provide not just insight for opportunities for development and growth, but look to work with the Business Wales service to understand how we can help different local businesses to see a future where there is more local trade coming in. Some parts of Wales are very successful at it, whether it's Narberth or whether it's some towns in the Valleys as well, where they've got very vibrant, local small businesses, often driven by independents within that sector. So, we will carry on looking to work directly with those businesses to make sure we continue to not just recognise the future of the retail sector, but more than that, to help people to start new businesses as well. That's why I have been pleased to announce a further round of our start-up grant to help new entrepreneurs with up to £2,000 to set up a business—not just the money, but the advice that comes alongside it.

Combating Gender-based Violence through Sport

Jenny Rathbone AC: 7. What conversations has the Minister had with sporting bodies about combating gender-based violence? OQ60474

Dawn Bowden AC: Can I thank Jenny Rathbone for that question? The Welsh Government will not be a bystander to any form of abuse, including gender-based violence. The Welsh Government’s whole-society approach to tackling violence against women, based on prevention and early intervention, will help us to directly challenge and change these behaviours across all sectors, including sport.

Jenny Rathbone AC: Thank you, Minister, for that response. I'm sure we're all older and wiser as a result of the—. It's nearly a year ago that we heard about the existential threat to one of our most prominent sporting bodies and I congratulate the leadership of the Welsh Rugby Union for the action that they are taking to rectify the problems of the past. But clearly we need to look as widely as possible at what can be a threat to the progress we want to make. For example, there's a strong push to include more women officials in sport, and particularly in women supervising games played by men. And given that there are already instances of abuse targeted towards officials in spectator games, what plans does the Welsh Government have to work with sporting bodies to ensure female officials are protected from even further abuse and are not put off by taking on these responsibilities?

Dawn Bowden AC: Can I thank Jenny Rathbone for that very important supplementary question? And before I answer, perhaps it would be just worth acknowledging that it's really good to see female officials coming through the ranks, such as Cheryl Foster, the Welsh football referee and former player, of course; Rebecca Welch—she was the first female referee to officiate in the Premier League in December last year; and Hollie Davidson, the Scottish rugby referee—all officiating at the highest level of professional sport. And that's to be welcomed, and I think I want to have that on record. Because, you know, without these officials our sports can't flourish and can't even take place. So, it's important that they come forward.
But our starting point is that the programme for government that we have is about encouraging the participation of women in all aspects of sport, so that is whether they come forward as officials, whether they want to participate in sport, or whether they just want to be spectators of sport. There should be nothing that provides a barrier to women coming forward to be involved in sport. And as you quite rightly say, Jenny, what we saw with the WRU just over a year ago now was a major wake-up call. It was something that we had to respond to quickly and that the WRU had to respond to quickly, and so far all the signs are very positive in terms of how that organisation is dealing with that.
But we have a duty to challenge ourselves, don't we, when it comes to violence against women and misogyny and the gender inequality that lies behind that. So, there are discussions that are going on with sports organisations on the important role that they can play to support combating gender-related violence. And in addition to the existing provision that we have in that area, including, as you'll be well aware of, the long-standing Live Fear Free helpline that we established some time ago, the Welsh Government has established a major new campaign encouraging young men to reflect on their own behaviours when it comes to violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence, because it's important that we take a whole-society approach to this.
One of the things that I've said on many occasions is what we saw in the WRU, what we've seen again in the South Wales Fire and Rescue Service this year, what we've seen in other organisations, S4C, and we saw similar in theConfederation of BritishIndustryas well with complaints coming through there—this is a societal issue. This is not an issue that relates to any particular organisation. What is important, however, is that those organisations have policies and procedures in place. Of course, that's important, but more important than that is how they use those policies and procedures and how they develop a culture within those organisations that make the use of those policies and procedures safe for women to come into. So, we saw, for instance, in the WRU, and I think we saw with the south Wales fire service as well, that all of those kinds of procedures were in place. Women coming forward, however, were not taken seriously and so those procedures are only as good as how seriously the people that run those organisations take the complaints that come forward and how they deal with them, and that's the key to it: it's how we actually deal with it. I'm confident that we are putting in place procedures, policies and strategies, working with organisations and with society as a whole, to try to change the cultural approach to women in society.

Laura Anne Jones AC: I'm glad to hear you're so supportive of women and girls in sport. I've been a bit concerned with some of the comments that you've made recently on that, because of the absolute importance that women and girls have their own changing rooms and have their own sports, and that we do not allow gender ideology to take over in sport. It is so important—sex over gender—in terms of the safety of girls and women in sport. Would you agree with that?

Dawn Bowden AC: The Welsh Government's position on that, Laura, is that decisions on trans people's participation in any part of society comes from the starting point of inclusion. We really have to avoid plunging further into what is often a very cruel and hostile debate surrounding the rights of trans people, and the attempt to insinuate, directly or otherwise, that somehow they are predatory and present a danger to the public. So, I make no apologies for supporting the trans community. They remain one of the few groups in society today where it appears to be acceptable to discriminate, to abuse, to intimidate and to be the subject of physical violence and attacks, and even murder.
It is a complex issue, and I think it's incumbent on us to recognise that people do not enter into the gender reassignment process lightly. When they choose to do so, they should be supported and not judged, and that anti-trans rhetoric really undermines the good work that's going on in so many settings to support trans people, including in our education system. So, I don't stand by and allow an anti-trans narrative to go unchallenged, and I will not be drawn into right-wing populist rabbit holes of demonising the trans community. I urge greater understanding and compassion for them.

The Welsh Government's Economic Mission

Hefin David AC: 8. Will the Minister provide an update on the Welsh Government's economic mission? OQ60475

Vaughan Gething AC: Yes, I set out my four priorities for a stronger economy on 28 November last year. This should enable us to drive forward the economic mission across Wales to recognise the significant economic pressures that we face. However, we put a focus on green growth, backing young people, delivering across regions of Wales and, in particular, investing in growth in good jobs for the future of the economy.

Hefin David AC: With regard to those jobs, I listened to Paul Davies with interest. As he knows, I've got a great deal of respect for him, but the primary driver for the problems with apprenticeships has been Brexit, which the Minister opposed, and also, of course, the disastrous UK Government apprenticeship levy, which is, effectively, a tax on employers in Wales without very much return here. We need a better settlement, so will the Minister, therefore, outline what more the UK Government could be doing to enable the Welsh Government to expand apprenticeships, including with reference to the apprenticeship levy, and has he had any discussions with Westminster representatives around this?

Vaughan Gething AC: Yes, we find it a very difficult and frustrating, in a sense. When the apprenticeship levy was introduced, the then finance Minister, Mark Drakeford, was told there would be £109 million coming to Wales; he then read that £117 million would be taken away because of other changes in apprenticeship funding. So, the introduction of the levy saw a net reduction of £8 million in the funding formula for apprentices in Wales. So, actually, when people try to compare the apprenticeship levy in England here in Wales, we're not comparing like with like. Those employers that get their own money to spend in accounts in England have actually paid for it and more, and we have still seen a reduction.
What we have done with our own resources is invest even more in apprenticeship funding, and I'm pleased to see Ken Skates on the screen and, indeed, my colleague Eluned Morgan here, because when they have been Ministers with responsibility for skills, we have not just looked again at what we're doing and how fit for purpose it is, we've made real choices about how much to invest. I believe that a future UK Labour Government, keeping its promise to return the money and the powers over former EU funds, is one of the best things we could possibly see happen for the future of apprenticeships. It would allow us to reintroduce a national strategic all-Wales apprenticeship programme that was deliberately put to one side by the Tories when they designed the shared prosperity fund. It isn't just the mechanics of politics; it really does matter. We'd see more money being put to an even better purpose. And I look forward to campaigning for the return of those moneys and the powers that this Senedd should be able to scrutinise and help the Government to direct.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Thank you, Minister.

2. Questions to the Minister for Health and Social Services

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: The next questions will be to the Minister for Health and Social Services. The first question is from Altaf Hussain.

NHS Waiting Times

Altaf Hussain AS: 1. What assessment has the Minister made of the impact that cuts to local authority social services will have on NHS waiting times in 2024? OQ60459

Eluned Morgan AC: While funding is not being reduced, the value, in real terms, may impact on what can be achieved. How local authority budgets are allocated is down to local councillors. Improved partnership working, as monitored through the pathways of care reporting, will assess the impact, and planned care has actions to reduce reliance on acute beds.

Altaf Hussain AS: Thank you, Minister. Social care services play a vital role by keeping people well for longer outside of hospital and enabling faster, safer discharges home. Recent research by the Institute for Fiscal Studies found that reductions in social care spending led to a substantial increase in the use of accident and emergency departments by individuals aged 65 and above. The impacts were most pronounced amongst the very oldest, that is, those aged 85 and above, and those living in more deprived neighbourhoods. The pandemic has highlighted the importance of co-ordination between hospitals and social care providers. Since social services in Wales have forecasted a budget gap of £646 million over the next three years, does the Minister accept that waiting times will continue to worsen under this Welsh Government?

Eluned Morgan AC: Thank you very much. Well, you're quite right that, actually, the relationship between social care and health is one that has to be taken very, very seriously. And the fact is that, in Wales, we spend 40 per cent more money in Wales compared to England on adult social care. But it's clear that that's still not enough, and the fact that over 2,000 social care workers went home after Brexit and they haven't come back has actually made a difference. And I know you don't like hearing that, but that is the reality, particularly in areas like west Wales, where it has been very difficult to recruit and where there are other areas of the economy that are now sucking in those people who were doing social care. A lot of them have now gone into hospitality and other areas where there are now gaps, again left as a result of Brexit.
The fact is that we actually spend a lot of money and time co-ordinating our efforts in Wales between the NHS and local government. We've got a very firm budget that has been set up, the regional integration fund—£144 million annually specifically in order to make sure that that integrated work carries on. Because you're quite right, if we don't get the flow through the hospitals, it does have an impact on planned care. And obviously that's something that we want to avoid, and it's a reason why not only are we making sure that the work that we're carrying out in relation to assessments and things is very proactive, but also we're trying to follow the recommendation that top medics suggest, which is that actually you should be increasing significantly the amount of day care operations that you carry out. We do too many operations that necessitate an overnight stay.

Primary Healthcare in Newport East

John Griffiths AC: 2. What is the Welsh Government's current assessment of the availability of primary healthcare services in Newport East? OQ60481

Eluned Morgan AC: AneurinBevanUniversity Health Board continues to invest and work to improve access to primary care services in Newport East, to deliver our vision of 'A Healthier Wales'.

John Griffiths AC: Thank you for that, Minister. It's very good to see ongoing investment in those primary healthcare services, and I'm very pleased that, in Ringland in Newport East, we will have a new integrated health and well-being centre hopefully opening in around a year's time. But in other parts of Newport East there is considerable community concern regarding the lack of adequate primary healthcare services, Minister. In Severnside, in Magor and Undy, there's quite a rapidly growing population, with lots of new housing having been built and still ongoing, and just a satellite outreach GP service, with limited hours, from the Gray Hill Surgery in Caldicot. People feel very strongly there, in Magor and Undy, that the rate of population growth and new housing hasn't been matched by the availability and development of services, very much including primary healthcare. So, I just wonder what you see as a mechanism, Minister, for communities to make those concerns known and to work with the health board, the local authority and Welsh Government to make sure that better provision comes about in the near future.

Eluned Morgan AC: Great. Thanks very much, and thank you for that welcome development in Ringland—£28 million-worth of funding going into that development, and, as you say, we hope that that will be there for all to use by this time next year.
We know that there's a lot of pressure on GP surgeries in particular at the moment. That's why what we're trying to do is to take the pressure off them through things like making sure that pharmacies can take some pressure off. Lots of pharmacies now are able to prescribe, and, obviously, we have the common ailments scheme, which has already been rolled out across the whole of Wales.
But when it comes to what happens next, we're obviously very keen to make sure that we do see more integration, in particular between health and social care hubs, bringing those local public services together. But our programme—and there's a lot of money dedicated to this programme—is informed by those strategic capital plans that are presented to us by the regional partnership boards. So, if people in those communities have any concerns, the thing for them to do is to speak to the local health board, which will then determine whether this, indeed, is one of their priorities within the broad complex of all of the other things that they may want to do. And then there's a prioritisation exercise, obviously, in the light of affordability, just to make sure that we develop that pipeline that is fair then across the whole of Wales.

Natasha Asghar AS: Minister, I'm going to ask you a question that I'm sure many Members have already asked in the past, but getting a dentist appointment is quite frankly becoming a living hell for many people, and it's something that I am contacted about on a daily basis. Residents across south-east Wales now are being forced to tolerate pain as they struggle to secure an appointment or even find a dentist on the NHS in the first place. One elderly constituent of mine was forced to travel across the border to England to pay for private treatment as she struggled to find a local practice to see her on the NHS. And I'll even put my hands up here today in the Chamber and confess that, unashamedly, I took my own mother across the border because the dental practice that she was a patient of refused to deal with her when she was suffering with the pain and anguish of a toothache. And it felt to me, personally, that their desire to have her on a monthly pay-as-you-go package was bigger and far greater than giving her the medical treatment that she needed.
Now, Minister, going private, quite frankly, simply isn't an option for many of my constituents. I'm sure that you'll agree, Minister, that stories like the ones I've just shared aren't acceptable and that people all across Wales should have easy access to NHS dentists. So, Minister, what steps are the Welsh Government going to take to make sure that more people can be seen by NHS dentists within a reasonable time frame?

Eluned Morgan AC: Thanks very much. Well, the Member will be aware that, actually, we have spent a significant amount of time trying to reorganise what is a fundamentally challenged area through introducing a new contract, and that new contract has meant that, for the first time in many, many years, those dentists are taking on new patients. Now, are they taking on enough? No, because, obviously, there's been a reduction, partly as a result of the pandemic and new methods that you have to do to make sure that there's no spread of infections. But the fact is that nearly 290,000 new patients have received treatment since April 2022, which is not an insignificant amount, including 50,000 people within the Aneurin Bevan University Health Board area. Now, while I accept that the people you are talking about are not part of those, but, obviously, we have asked them now to come up with these central lists so that we are much clearer about what we need to do. But you can't switch on dentists overnight. Dentists determine whether they want to work for the NHS or the private sector. Most of them work for both, frankly. But it's not something that you can browbeat people into, particularly when our budgets are limited. That's why one of the things that we're trying to do is to expand the opportunities for people to see dental therapists. We're training more dental therapists than ever before, just to make sure that we can take that pressure off, because, actually, the National Institute for Health and Care Excellence suggest that you shouldn't need to see a dentist, if you've got healthy teeth, more than once every two years. And the fact is that most of us are in a routine of saying, 'Right, let's just go for our six-monthly check-up' when it's unnecessary. And so we need to kind of make room for those people who really need those appointments, and that's what we've tried to do.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: Following on from Natasha's question, there have been warnings, obviously, for the last year that NHS dentistry in Wales has reached crisis point. It may be true that backlogs for those waiting for treatment have been reduced, but they are yet to return to pre-pandemic levels. What's also true is that it's become incredibly difficult to get an NHS dentist, leaving expensive private dental care the only other option. This is a particular issue for veterans who have returned to civilian life after decades of performing a difficult and stressful role. I have a constituent who has been out of the armed forces for a decade and still cannot get an NHS dentist. One constituent said: 'This is a massive issue. I left in 2014 and still have to go private. There is no support for that, yet health is part of the armed forces' covenant. We should get an automatic place, I believe. It's not our fault we didn't live in our local village since birth.' Minister, what would you say to the veterans, as well as those who didn't serve in the forces, who are waiting and waiting and waiting for an NHS dentist?

Eluned Morgan AC: Well, thanks very much. Well, what I would say is that they should ensure that they do get their name down on a list, because, obviously, this is part of a process, and, every year, we are encouraging those NHS dentists to take on new patients. And obviously, we're doing really well on that. If you compare how we're doing with new NHS patients compared to England, we are miles ahead of where they are in England. Now, it's not enough, and we're very well aware that the demand is greater than the supply. But, as I say, you can't switch these people on overnight, and we are in the process of training new people up.
We are particularly aware of the challenges in rural areas, which is why one of the things we've tried to do is to incentivise people to train in those more rural areas, with an extra £5,000 to make sure that they can get not just that additional funding, but also additional support, and, hopefully, then, they will stay in those areas.
In relation to veterans, I'm happy to have a look at what more we can do in that space, because, obviously, we do have that covenant, and I'll get back to you on that issue.

Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Questions now from the party spokespeople. The Welsh Conservative spokesperson, Gareth Davies.

Gareth Davies AS: Diolch, Llywydd, Deputy Minister, the Welsh Local Government Association and the Association of Directors of Social Services have forecast a budget gap in social services of £646 million over the next three years, as alluded to by my colleague, Altaf Hussain, in his first question—a spending cut that will affect the most vulnerable people in Wales. A WLGA spokesperson said that departments receive more than 1,000 calls a day from people concerned about children at risk of abuse or neglect, as well as families that struggle to support elderly relatives or relatives with learning difficulties. We need swift action to ensure that the most vulnerable people in society are not plunged into hardship or put at risk of neglect. The WLGA has also raised concerns regarding the cap limiting the amount that people pay for homecare, which means that the wealthiest in society are not paying the full cost of their care. Can the Deputy Minister outline whether the Welsh Government has any plans to reassess the cap in order to ensure the burden is shared fairly?

Julie Morgan AC: I thank Gareth Davies for those questions. I'm aware of the comments of the WLGA and the ADSS, and I'm aware that, in social care, we are working to help and promote the well-being of some of the most vulnerable people in society, so the budget is very important. As he's aware, the vast majority of the budget is delivered by local government, and I'm sure he's aware that we've protected the local government budget, in fact increasing it by 3.5 per cent. And I think he's also aware, as the Minister said in one of her responses, that we actually spend 43 per cent more on social care in Wales than in England, if you want to have a look at a comparator.
But, obviously, we've had to make difficult decisions, and we are doing our best to protect those public services that are the most important. In terms of the cap for homecare, he is right, the WLGA has requested us to look at the amount of cap for domiciliary care services, and we are considering that.

Gareth Davies AS: Thank you very much. Any additional funding that can be allocated to social services is money that would make a huge difference to the quality of vulnerable people's lives, and is money that would ensure more people are able to live with dignity. I would wager that the majority of people in Wales would prioritise the care and dignity of the most vulnerable people in society over pet projects such as blanket 20 mph speed restrictions, Senedd expansion, universal basic income pilot schemes and other big state vanity schemes that seldom have a positive impact on people's lives but serve only to exhibit the socialist credentials of the Welsh Government in the hope of attracting kudos from the media. Can the Deputy Minister outline what action the Welsh Government is taking to work with local authorities to find a way to plug this gap using a proportion of their reserves to ensure that social services are properly resourced?

Julie Morgan AC: Yes. We are certainly working with local authorities all the time. We are in continuous dialogue with them. We've obviously had discussions with them about the budget. We understand their concerns, which have been expressed, and we've done all we can in the budget to protect the most vulnerable services. And, as I would like to repeat, we spend 43 per cent more on social care in Wales than is spent in England. They are a priority for us. Social services and social care in the community, I absolutely agree, are absolutely crucial and we are in continuous dialogue with our partners.

Gareth Davies AS: Thanks again, Deputy Minister. You say you're protecting the most vulnerable in society, but can you really stand here this afternoon and say that the most vulnerable people in society are protected by the priorities of this Welsh Government when favouring such schemes as blanket 20 mph, Senedd expansion and the UBI pilot that I've just mentioned? Granted, it doesn't go all the way to solving every problem in social care, but can you obviously say that the cost of those schemes could be spent better to protect some of the most vulnerable people in society and improve our health and social care systems across Wales as a whole? But I'd be grateful if the Deputy Minister could address the Healthcare Inspectorate Wales review finding that there are still consistent challenges caused by poor patient flow through wards as a result of social care issues. Difficulty discharging patients to more appropriate placements or back home with support is causing a bottleneck effect in hospitals, with patients occupying valuable beds when they are medically fit to leave. This situation, I am sure the Deputy Minister can appreciate, is not ideal for the patient or the hospital who need the space for other patients. Could the Deputy Minister please lay out what the Welsh Government is doing to ensure that all parts of the health and social care sector work together as effectively as possible to address patient flow issues? Thank you.

Julie Morgan AC: Thank you, Gareth. I am very proud of this Government's protection of the most vulnerable people in society and I think we have a record that I am proud to stand on. In terms of the poor patient flow, that's something that we've been working on very closely—health and social services working very closely together, in health boards and local government—and we have been able to bring down the number of people who are staying in hospital because there is no social package available for them. That has been coming down. It's still far too high, and we've got an awful lot of work to do there, but we are working together on it. We have got an action committee—a care action committee—that consists of key people in the field, who meet regularly to discuss what steps can be taken. The Minister for Health and Social Services delegated money to increase support at home over the weekends, for example, and for end-of-life care, in order that we don't have the upsetting situations of people going into hospital who would be much better off at home. And the other area that we really have to concentrate on is stopping people going into hospital when they are better off at home, and we continue to put those extra resources in. So, we do have a plan. We are seeing progress, but it is a long-term plan, and we have to work very hard at it. But I reiterate that I'm very proud of the work that this Labour Welsh Government has done in social care, in the health service, and I think we are seeing progress.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: The Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Mabon ap Gwynfor.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: Diolch, Llywydd. Last week, the director of the RCN in Wales, Helen Whyley, issued a stark warning to the health Minister that things need to change in 2024. Given the relentless pressures endured by our dedicated healthcare workers throughout the course of last year, she was right to do so. As I mentioned yesterday during the budget debate, business as usual is simply not an option if we want a sustainable future for the NHS. It was disappointing, therefore, that the Minister's response was to flippantly state that the RCN had not been paying attention. But maybe it's the Government who is guilty of not being attentive to the legitimate concerns of the RCN, which is exemplified by the recent news that the Welsh Government is considering introducing a regulated band 4 nursing associate role in Wales, without prior consultation and parliamentary scrutiny. We're not opposed in principle to reforms of this nature, but they must always, without exception, be developed fully above board in collaboration with relevant staff representatives. Will the Minister therefore confirm whether the Welsh Government is intending to introduce nursing associates into the Welsh NHS, and, if so, will the plans be submitted to the RCN for consultation and approval prior to their implementation?

Eluned Morgan AC: Thanks very much. Obviously, we have very frequent conversations with the Royal College of Nursing. We absolutely need the incredible work that they do in our hospitals, and I'd like to thank all nurses and all healthcare workers for the incredible work that they've carried out over the most pressurised time of the year. They are right—things need to change. But I've got to underline that, actually, things are changing. There is a whole host of things that I've changed in the past two years. We didn't have urgent primary care centres two years ago. We didn't have same-day emergency care centres two years ago. We have significantly more ambulance workers this year than we had two years ago, and we've got the '111 press 2' system, which is taking a lot of pressure off our hospitals. So, I think it is fair to say that they haven't been paying attention because, actually, those are all things that demonstrate that the system is changing. But, in relation to the band 4 nursing associate role, I think it is important for us to make sure that we understand that there is a role for nurses, but I think it's a conversation that is definitely worth having in terms of the introduction of nursing associates. What we need, though, is to make sure that safety is a priority, and we need to make sure that patient safety is put first, and, in order to do that, you may need to regulate and that's why we're looking into this area. But if we do introduce it, of course there will be a consultation in relation to that.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: Thank you for that answer. We fully acknowledge the potential benefits that nursing associates could bring to the workforce, especially in terms of offering new routes for entering the nursing profession, but it's essential that their introduction doesn't end up becoming the Government's de facto solution to filling the long-standing vacancy gaps in Wales's cohort of registered nurses. As the RCN rightly notes, inadequate nursing levels carry the risk of up to 26 per cent higher patient mortality, longer hospital stays and higher infection rates. Any future proposals for nursing associates must therefore be predicated first and foremost on the fundamental premise that there will be no regression in registered nurse capacity. So, how will the Government's plans in this area interact with the Nurse Staffing Levels (Wales) Act 2016? There would also need to be a coherent strategy for their effective integration within the workforce, as well as clear pathways for career development, which were identified in a recent study by King's College London as key shortcomings of the approach undertaken in England. We need clarity on how the Welsh Government aims to fund these new roles. So, can the Minister guarantee that any plans to introduce nursing associates will not affect existing funding streams for registered nurses, including those for education and training programmes? And will the Minister commit to ensuring that the distinction between nursing associates and registered nurses is made explicit in all future Welsh Government planning, reporting and data collection on the NHS workforce?

Eluned Morgan AC: Thanks very much. I'm glad that the Member understands that, actually, we need multiple routes into nursing, and it was really heartening to see, at the end of last week, with my colleague, the way that apprenticeships start people on their career. They start through being care workers and then lots of them work up, and their ambition is to become nurses, but that is the route through, and they don't want to go to university, and I think that's something that should be commended. Now, you're not asking questions about that, and I think that's absolutely right, but the point is, at the moment, you keep on asking week after week, 'What are you going to do about bringing down the number of agency staff?' This is part of the answer, to make sure that we've got routes into nursing that are not just via people coming straight from university. Now, I think the key thing to remember here is that there will be a distinction, and there will always be a distinction between those band 4 nurse associates, but what we hope would happen is that it would release nurses to work at the top of their licence. Certainly, what is important, as far as we're concerned, is that, actually, we have a team around wards to make sure that it doesn't all fall on one part of the profession.

Winter Pressures

Andrew R.T. Davies AC: 3. Will the Minister make a statement on how the Welsh NHS is dealing with winter pressures? OQ60473

Eluned Morgan AC: It's been a challenging winter to date for NHS Wales and partners caused partially by spikes in demand, acuity and complexity of patient need, and patient flow issues. Local authorities and health boards have integrated plans and actions in place, enabling greater system resilience despite additional pressure on services.

Andrew R.T. Davies AC: Thank you, Minister, for that answer. I heard in exchanges with the Deputy Minister about delayed transfers of patients out of hospitals who are medically fit back into the community. This time last year, you gave a statement to the Chamber that indicated 12 per cent of beds were occupied by those who are medically fit and able to be discharged, and you'd also allocated in the April before that £145 million for a five-year programme to assist that discharge scheme. Can you update today what the situation is within the Welsh NHS of people who are medically fit to be discharged, and the number of beds that they're occupying, and has there been any material improvement in the flow of patients in Welsh hospitals that you were indicating would happen when this programme was put in place by you nearly two years ago now, because, as we all know, delayed transfers of care is a huge pressure point during the winter months?

Eluned Morgan AC: Thanks very much. The number of medically fit in our hospitals still remains way too high, but we have a very systematic approach to that now. We've got a very detailed mechanism to assess exactly why they're in hospital. It's now a system that is understood throughout Wales, where, for everybody, why they're in hospital is coded, so everybody knows exactly and so there's not this blame game between health boards and local authorities. Everybody knows exactly why they're there.
So, we still have over 1,000 people in our hospitals who are delayed transfers, but, actually, because we've put so much work into this—in particular, the No. 1 reason for people remaining in hospital is a delayed assessment, so they need to be assessed for their care requirements—and because of the investment that we've put into this in terms of time, energy and resources between us, local government and the health boards, we have seen a reduction in terms of the delays to assessments by 24 per cent between February and November 2023. So, it's really heartening to see that where we really focus on an issue, those numbers comes down. That's one of the areas where I think we should be quite proud. Also, on the delays due to social worker allocation, which was another reason, we've seen a significant reduction in that—a 61 per cent reduction there. So, things are getting better. The fact that we can really identify why people are still there is absolutely key, because then we can genuinely run after them.

Delyth Jewell AC: The sight of long lines of ambulances queueing outside our hospitals has become normalised. It seems that ambulances are almost new waiting rooms, and last year I raised my worries about how the fumes from these queueing ambulances with their engines running will be polluting the air outside A&E departments where people are already vulnerable and very poorly. Since the end of last year, fans have had to be placed at the doors of Gwent accident and emergency hospital in the Grange to disperse those fumes from the ambulances, and that wasn't just a temporary emergency measure; the fans are still there. They'll stay there, presumably, until the ambulances no longer have to queue to discharge their patients. Minister, when do you think that will be? And what urgent discussions are you having about the dirty polluted air outside our hospitals, because of these queueing ambulances?

Eluned Morgan AC: Thanks very much. Well, I was very privileged to spend the day with our valiant ambulance workers before Christmas, and it was really useful just to see the kind of pressure they're under and the frustrations that they suffer standing outside hospitals for hours on end. It's not something that they want to be doing; they're trained to do a job and they want to get on with that job. And on 2 January, which is probably the most pressurised day in the NHS, I dropped in to three hospitals unannounced, just to really get a sense of how it felt, and it is significant, and there were people who were extremely frustrated.
In relation to the fumes and the ambulances—the issues that you highlighted there—this was something that we acted upon last year. So, one of the things we've done is we've put charging posts into many emergency departments, so that they can plug in their ambulances, to avoid those fumes. So, those are in place now across many emergency departments in Wales; I've seen them myself, so they are in place. We probably need a few more of them, but until that happens, then I think it's absolutely right that we do carry on trying to disperse those fumes with fans, or whatever else needs to be done in order to protect our patients, and obviously the ambulance workers themselves.
The key thing, though, is to try and address the issue of how do we get that flow going; how do we fix the issue in relation to social care; and how do we try and avoid people coming into hospital in the first place, and I think that's the real challenge for us. It was interesting, I heard just today that most of the people who've been given a bed in Hywel Dda in the past few days are over 90 years old. Now, you have got to start questioning, 'Look, is that the right place? Wouldn't they rather be at home, and how do we put more resources into making that shift into supporting them into the community?' We did that; we've been doing that. We've put an extra £8.5 million into that this financial year, trying to put that protective support in place for the palliative care that the Deputy Minister was talking about, and also putting that district nursing care in place, so that they're in place not just from nine to five on weekdays, but also on weekends and during the evenings as well.

Swansea Bay University Health Board

Sioned Williams AS: 4. How is the Government ensuring that people living in the Swansea Bay University Health Board area have confidence in local health services? OQ60457

Eluned Morgan AC: The health boards are responsible for delivery of health services for their local population. Welsh Government holds them accountable for the services that they deliver and works with them to ensure that patients are able to access high-quality services.

Sioned Williams AS: Thank you, Minister. Last week, seven wards at Morriston Hospital had to close due to cases of norovirus, COVID, flu and C. difficile, and the infections had spread to such an extent that the hospital had to close to visitors for six days. It was only yesterday that the health board was able to reopen to visitors, although one ward is still closed to visitors. It was a very worrying time for my constituents who have family and friends in hospital, who were concerned that they would be exposed to these infections, which can of course be extremely serious for those who are already sick or weak.
Minister, what assessment have you made of what has led to a lack of public confidence in the ability of health services to protect them from infections like this in our hospitals? And what consideration has been given to the recent advice, for example, of the World Health Organization, that wearing a mask should be made mandatory in health settings, in accordance with the wishes of the Royal College of Nursing, expressed in a letter to the Chief Nursing Officer for Wales, and that ventilation in wards, out-patient clinics and waiting areas should be improved, in order to try and prevent respiratory infections such as COVID from putting extra pressure on staff and services, and exacerbating situations like the one that arose at Morriston Hospital?

Eluned Morgan AC: Thank you very much. Norovirus, COVID and flu rates are starting to increase. They're increasing across Wales and, certainly, in terms of what we saw in Swansea, I think that that was the proper thing to do. If you see a problem approaching you, the thing to do is to prevent the situation from deteriorating further by taking pre-emptive steps before the situation gets worse, and that's what happened in Swansea. I was pleased to see that they had taken those steps and also pleased to see that they feel that they can relax those rules now.
Just in terms of infection and monitoring, of course they do have to meet certain standards. This is one of the things that we do ask about and monitor with health boards, in order to ensure that they are hygienic and that things are kept clean. Also, we always take their advice seriously, but we also have to consider the World Health Organization's evidence, and we have to consider other issues and ensure that what we introduce in our hospitals is backed up by evidence in order to ensure that there's a reason for taking certain actions. You do have to hold certain things back for when it gets very difficult indeed, and we're not in the situation where we were with COVID in the past, for example.

Tom Giffard AS: Minister, the winter months have been really difficult for Morriston Hospital. As you know, back in November, the hospital issued a black alert due to high levels of pressure brought on by a number of patients waiting for beds, and then, a few days later, another black alert was issued for different reasons, and as we've heard already, just last week, we saw bans on visitors to the hospital due to rising levels of viral infection at Morriston Hospital too. People in Swansea and beyond, myself included, value Morriston Hospital and the role the staff there play in helping patients in their time of need, and I just wanted to use this opportunity to place on record the care that my grandfather received at Morriston Hospital for the few weeks he stayed there over the winter months: it was greatly appreciated. It's really important too that people have the confidence that it can operate as effectively as they know that it can. So, what steps have you taken to reassure the public that Morriston Hospital is the safe, effective hospital that people know it can be, particularly over the winter period, when it deals with additional seasonal pressures?

Eluned Morgan AC: Thanks very much. Well, Morriston was one of the hospitals that I visited on my visit on 2 January, and there was no question about it, it was under intense pressure, and it was really good to have the opportunity to speak to the consultants on the front line and the nurses and some of those ambulance workers, who were very keen to share some of their experiences and their concerns.
Just in relation to assurances, of course, responsibility for the delivery of NHS care is actually delegated from me to the health boards, and what we do as a Government is we seek assurance and we provide challenge on a regular basis. We do this through the joint executive team meetings that we have every six months and we have integrated quality planning and delivery arrangements with local health, monthly, just to check out what is going on. At this time of year, frankly, we're in daily contact with them just to find out, 'Right, what's the pressure you're under? Is there anything more we can do to help? Do we need to look at whether other health boards can come and support you?' So, there are some very clear and deliverable targets that we expect health boards to deliver, and I think it is important, though, for people in that community to understand that the vast, vast majority of people are receiving quality care on a very timely basis.

Speech and Language Therapists

Mark Isherwood AC: 5. How is the Welsh Government helping to retain and recruit speech and language therapists in Wales? OQ60465

Eluned Morgan AC: We invest £281 million each year in health professional education. Our bursary supports students through education. We are committed to post-registration development and career pathways, with clinical supervision, professional development and preceptorship opportunities enabling speech and language therapists to develop their skills and become members of a professional network of SLTs across Wales.

Mark Isherwood AC: I should declareI have direct personal experience of the vital role that speech and language therapists play in enabling a child to grow into a successful adult.
The Royal College of Speech and Language Therapists has been calling for an increase in the commissioning number for speech and language therapists in Wales in 2024-25, and better workforce planning for the profession in Wales as part of an allied health professional workforce plan. They stated last year that their membership data reveals that there are fewer speech and language therapists per head of the population in Wales than in any other part of the UK. How do you therefore respond to the Anglesey parent who shared a letter from the head of the speech and language therapy service at Betsi Cadwaladr University Local Health Board, received three days before Christmas, which stated that in consequence of the,
'challenges relating to the recruitment and retention of speech and language therapy staff within the department, which is also reflected across the NHS',
they,
'have been unsuccessful in recruiting to speech and language therapy for the special schools',
and,
'there is currently no speech and language therapy provision for the special schools'?
They identified schools in Llangefni, Caernarfon and Penrhyndeudraeth.

Eluned Morgan AC: Thanks very much. Well, as I say, we are investing significantly in training the next generation of NHS workers, and that includes speech and language therapists, and training places have indeed increased by 11 per cent from 2018. So, we are increasing those numbers. Of course, on top of that, I earmarked £5 million-worth of funding to create additional allied healthcare professional posts in primary and community services, which include speech and language therapy posts.
What I will say in relation to north Wales is that Health Education and Improvement Wales introduced a brand-new speech and language therapy course in north Wales at Wrexham Glyndŵr University, and the first intake started in 2022-23, so they will be coming out. They're obviously not ready yet, but I hope that that will give some comfort to those special schools that, actually, that pipeline of recruitment should be delivering in the next few years.

Strategy for Increasing Breastfeeding

Jenny Rathbone AC: 6. What is the Welsh Government's strategy for increasing breastfeeding? OQ60472

Eluned Morgan AC: The aim of the all-Wales breastfeeding action plan is that more babies in Wales will be breastfed, and for longer, with a reduction in inequalities. The plan identifies strategic goals, setting out local and national actions to ensure that breastfeeding is a culturally accepted and supported norm.

Jenny Rathbone AC: Minister, you'll be well aware that the National Institute for Health and Care Excellence guidance says that women should exclusively breastfeed for the first six months of the baby's life, due to the well-documented lifelong benefits for both the child and the mother. I was devastated to learn, at a recent cross-party group on nursing and midwifery, that the breastfeeding lead at Public Health Wales revealed that the number of mothers who successfully breastfeed their child for the full six months has fallen to one in 100—1 per cent. That is pretty depressing news, as I'm sure you will agree.
We know that breastfeeding isn't easy, and new mums often can't draw on the experience of their own mother or other relatives to help them successfully breastfeed, even though that is their expressed wish. An undiagnosed tongue-tie poses an additional challenge, which needs swift intervention to rectify that physical barrier to successful breastfeeding. I don't expect highly trained midwives to have the time to help new mums with the sometimes or often time-consuming task of successful breastfeeding, but we do need multidisciplinary teams. So, I want to know how many midwives have breastfeeding support workers as part of their multidisciplinary team, and how many breastfeeding support workers are there in community midwife teams across Wales to tackle what is a serious public health challenge?

Eluned Morgan AC: Thanks very much. I was really stunned when I saw that figure of 1 per cent, and very, very concerned. I've looked into it, and my understanding is that that was from an infant feeding survey that was produced in 2010. So, the good news is that Stats Wales highlights that just over 20 per cent of Welsh babies are being exclusively breastfed and more than 25 per cent are breastfed at six months. That's much better than the figures that you talked about. I must say I was very relieved to hear that, because we all know that breastfeeding is very good for the well-being both of the babies and the mothers as well. Fewer babies suffer from infections, diarrhoea, vomiting. They have fewer visits to primary and secondary care settings. There are lots and lots of things. I don't need to list them to you, Jenny. You're more than aware of how important this matter is. But what I can tell you is that I think it's important that there's recognition that there are infant feeding leads in all local health boards across Wales. It's also important to recognise that all neonatal nurses, maternity support workers and midwives play a vital role in supporting mothers to breastfeed. So, it's not just about breastfeeding support workers—it is about that broader team, and that's the way that I hope that health boards will look at this.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Breast is best. Breastfed babies have a lower risk of asthma, obesity, type 1 diabetes and sudden infant death syndrome. Breastfed babies are also less likely to have ear infections and stomach bugs. However, not all new mums can achieve this, and they do struggle. Given the pressures on our wards, I'd like to know how this is being addressed. A study that included all women in Wales who gave birth between 2018 and 2021 found breastfeeding rates at six months went up from 16.6 per cent, before the pandemic, to 20 per cent. This study’s lead author, Hope Jones, attributed the increase to family spending more time at home—obviously during COVID, you see. What steps are you taking, Minister, and the Welsh Government, to ensure that the percentage doesn't go back down, that the health sector in Wales is empowering mothers to actually realise that breast is best, and has actually got methodologies in place to help struggling mums? Diolch.

Eluned Morgan AC: Thanks very much. I think that is quite interesting, isn't it, just to see the switch from pre-pandemic to post-pandemic. And, of course, part of that was probably because people were working from home during that time. What I don't want to give is a message that women should stay at home. Let me be absolutely clear about that. But I think what we should do is to emphasise that point that you were making of all the huge benefits in relation to breastfeeding. What we are doing at the moment is some mapping work to understand what the current arrangements are across Wales, and then we're going to focus on developing a national framework this year to look at this very issue.

Mental Health Provision in Rural Communities

Cefin Campbell AS: 7. What is the Welsh Government doing to improve mental health provision in rural communities in Mid and West Wales? OQ60480

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: I'm expecting your microphone to be switched on. Lynne Neagle.

Lynne Neagle AC: Thank you, Llywydd. In addition to sustained funding for mental health services, we're providing dedicated resource for mental health in the NHS executive. This includes the development of a strategic mental health programme to drive improvements and more standardised mental health services, including in rural communities.

Cefin Campbell AS: Thank you very much. As we know, in the midst of the darkness of winter, the rain and cold, the overspending over Christmas, and bills to be paid, January can be a very challenging time, mentally, for many people, particularly in the agricultural community. In rural communities in Mid and West Wales, the mental health crisis is often hidden under the surface, and a recent survey by the Farm Safety Foundation notes that 94 per cent of farmers believe that serious mental health problems are the main challenge facing the sector. Of course, the reason for this mental stress can vary and be very complex indeed, from the impacts of TB to the appalling paperwork they have to do, financial pressures, and the fact that a farmer's life can be very lonely—very long hours working without seeing a soul. There's no doubt that important charities such as DPJ, RABI and Tir Dewi do excellent work, but the provision for specialist support within the health service is inconsistent and scarce. So, can I ask you what steps the Government is taking to expand mental provision and mental health support for our farmers within our rural communities?

Lynne Neagle AC: Can I thank Cefin Campbell for that supplementary question and recognise the importance of what he said about the need for mental health support for farming communities? I do recognise that people who are involved in farming do have specific mental health pressures, so he's made a very important point today. Of course, what we're doing is trying to make sure that everybody can access mental health services at the point that they need them. It's about the 'no wrong door' approach to mental health services. That includes specialist services, but it also includes the work that we've done through promoting the '111 press 2' for mental health, which is available 24/7, which I think is very useful for people in the farming community who are tied to their jobs during the day.
We've also prioritised funding for online cognitive behavioural therapy, things like SilverCloud; we've funded the DPJ Foundation, who I know do excellent work in rural communities with their bereavement services, and we have continued to prioritise investment in specialist services: £26.5 million last year and the year before to support key priority areas in the 'Together for Mental Health' delivery plan. So, we are continuing to prioritise that investment; we've continued to see health boards receiving increases in referrals, higher acuity and complexity of mental health referrals, and although we have seen some improvements in performance across services for both adults and child and adolescent mental health services, all health boards are having challenges meeting waiting times on a sustainable basis, and all health boards have developed revised trajectories to improve performance towards targets and to reduce waiting lists. The newly formed NHS executive is actively monitoring progress against the trajectories in monthly meetings with the health boards.
Just in relation to Hywel Dda and Powys, the areas Cefin Campbell covers, I'd just like to confirm that progress against trajectories to improve performance over the spring period are on course to be achieved.

James Evans AS: Deputy Minister, in rural areas, our pharmacies do play a very key role of helping us with mental health problems across Wales, but do you agree with me that there should be a more formal route for our pharmacists to actually refer people who go to them with mental health problems directly to mental health professionals and the provision that they actually need?

Lynne Neagle AC: Can I thank James Evans for that question? It is important to acknowledge the important role of pharmacists, some of whom will be the first port of call for people who are feeling distressed. I do think that there's more that we can do to make sure that pharmacists are able to pass people on to appropriate services. I know that there's already good practice in some places in Wales in relation to pharmacists signposting to services like '111 press 2', but as we develop our new mental health strategy for Wales and have such a strong focus on our workforce, it's going to be very important that we look to maximise further opportunities in that space, especially as pharmacy presents particular opportunities in rural communities.

Jane Dodds AS: Good afternoon, Deputy Minister. I just wanted to continue the discussion on mental health in rural areas, particularly what we would call dual diagnosis—that's the co-occurence of a mental health diagnosis potentially with substance misuse or alcohol misuse. They can go together, and a recent study from Swansea University found that 70 per cent of young people in Wales with substance abuse records also had documentation of mental illness. So, it's a big issue, and it's trying to think, in rural areas, particularly in Powys, how we can meet those needs. There's an organisation called Kaleidoscope that works with those people with both dual diagnosis and substance use, and they want to set up a service in Ystradgynlais. They currently only have one in Brecon, so anybody in south Powys, for example, has a real journey to undertake and is unlikely to seek help. So, I was just wondering what actions the Welsh Government can take to improve access to those really valuable services for people with co-occurring mental health and substance misuse disorders in rural communities. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Lynne Neagle AC: Thank you very much, Jane. You highlight a very important issue about co-occurring mental health and substance misuse issues. You'll be aware that we've protected funding for substance misuse issues in Wales. We're increasing funding again in the budget that we've just published, and that will include funding for people with complex needs, so people with mental health issues and substance misuse issues. It is a challenging area and we need to be mindful, always, that there can be a tendency to slip into silos, and what we want to do is get away from a situation where, just because somebody's got an addiction problem, they don't get their mental health support and vice versa. We want that 'no wrong door' approach to be there in services for people with complex needs as well.
In terms of funding for the services that you've described, the funding is ring-fenced that goes to area planning boards. I'm well aware of the good work of Kaleidoscope in other parts of Wales, and I would definitely advise them to engage with their area planning board about their plans. Just to add that we've issued guidance to area planning boards on people with co-occurring conditions, and we've got a special deep-dive group that focuses on it that meets quarterly, to try to make sure that we are sustaining progress in that area. Diolch.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Finally, question 8, Russell George.

GP Services

Russell George AC: 8. Will the Minister make a statement on the current demand on GP services? OQ60469

Eluned Morgan AC: The current level of demand on GP services is very high, as you would expect at this time of year, with GPs and their staff working extremely hard to provide care and advice to patients.

Russell George AC: Thank you for your answer, Minister. I met, at the back end of last year, with Dr Gareth Oelmann, who's the chair of the GP committee at BMA Wales, and we discussed in more detail the Save our Surgeries campaign. I'm also due to meet with Newtown Medical Practice doctors at the end of this week. When I met with Dr Oelmann, he spoke about GPs being forced to try and cope with inadequate resources and an unsustainable workload. He went on to talk about the pressures across the whole of Wales and some areas of Wales in crisis, exacerbated as well, of course, by burnout. As well as presenting the problems, the Save our Surgeries campaign brings forward solutions, and one of those solutions is a commitment to funding, restoring the proportion of the NHS Wales budget spend on general practices to the historic level of 8.7 per cent over the next three years. Other asks include investing in the workforce, producing a workforce strategy and also addressing staff well-being. I wonder, Minister, if you can provide an update on some of those asks, particularly with regard to negotiations around funding.

Eluned Morgan AC: Thanks very much. Clearly, there is a real funding challenge at the moment, and you'll be aware of how serious that is. So, it's going to be extremely difficult for us to find any additional funding for GPs, as it will be for anything in relation to health. I've got to first of all thank my colleagues from around the Government table, who have been willing to tap into their own resources in order to shore up the kind of pressures that we've seen in the NHS.
The fact is the UK Government spends about 10 per cent of the total Government spending at the moment on servicing debt. That's where the money's going. That's where UK money is going—it's servicing debt. That's £110 billion on servicing debt, and the entire UK health budget is £181 billion. So—[Interruption.] Well, let me come to this, because the fact is, if they don't spend money on health, we don't get a consequential and it's difficult for us to spend money on health. That's the way it goes, okay? So, we're spending 8 per cent more—[Interruption.] We're spending 8 per cent more, but if they're not spending it—. And if you look at the increase in funding between what happened in 2010, when the Tories came into power, to about 2019, it's gone up by about 15 per cent overall, the health budget. In Germany, it's gone up by about 35 per cent. There is a difference. We are way behind. We are way behind the rest of the EU when it comes to spending on healthcare.
I think, just in relation to GPs, the one thing that I will say is that, actually, our approach has been very clear that what we're trying to do is to build support around GPs. The fact is that we've got 379 active GP practices. We've increased the head count by 3.8 per cent. We've got an increase in GP registrars. So, those are increasing in Wales, but the demand just keeps on coming, which is why what we're trying to do is to make sure that we have alternatives for people. They can go to their pharmacies, they can go to their 111 service. And they're using them, this is what's amazing—the 111 service is used by about 70,000 people per month. It is taking pressure away from those GP services.
Now, I recognise that, as somebody who is married to a GP, there is a lot of pressure in the system at the moment, but that what we do need to do is to make sure that we try and build that support, get them to work in clusters, make sure that the system is more robust. But I do recognise that, in an ideal world, I want to see a shift from secondary care and more money going into prevention and to primary care. I'm very, very keen to see that, but you've got to be a very, very brave person, when you see those ambulances outside those hospital doors, when you see waiting lists, to say, 'Right, I'm going to cut secondary care.' So, we've got to get the balance right; we've go to do it slowly. We are doing it. The fact is that we've moved that extra money into our community—as I say, £8.5 million just this winter, just to make sure that we've got that support in the community to stop people from going into hospitals.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Finally, finally, Huw Irranca-Davies.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Diolch yn fawr iawn, Llywydd. Minister, in between the festivities over the recess, I spent the Christmas and the new year period visiting GP practices and community pharmacists throughout Ogmore and seeing first-hand—. And I thank them for the time they spent with me, because I saw first-hand the pressures they're under and the increasing range of services they provide to do what we all want to see, which is taking the load off secondary and acute care, off our hospitals, indeed, and keeping people well for longer in their homes or closer to their homes. They are really committed to this mission, as is Welsh Government.
Now, we all know this is the right approach. We've got to shift from being a national illness service to a national health service, so we all need to work together to prevent illness early on, and that includes, I have to say, our contribution as individuals as well. But they are under real strain; they are under strain. And they're picking up the wider strains as well in secondary care.
GPs and community pharmacists also want to be able to reward their front-line staff better, including the receptionists. We call them 'receptionists'—they are far more now. The skills that these receptionists have and what they're doing behind the scenes—they are about far more now than answering phones. So, can I seek your assurance that you will engage with our primary care practitioners? And could I, at their request, invite you to come to Ogmore, to see some of the work that they're doing, to sit down with them and discuss how they can help you in this mission, over time, to achieve that common objective of keeping people well, in or closer to their homes, for longer and over time, redirecting funding towards primary care to save funds that we're spending very expensively on illness rather than keeping people well?

Eluned Morgan AC: Well, thanks very much. And if those GPs that you visited actually read our 'A Healthier Wales' document, they would recognise that that is absolutely our strategic plan. We are doing some of this; we are doing quite a lot of it, actually. The fact that pharmacies are now there to support GPs is part of what we're delivering—the 'A Healthier Wales' strategy. And we are doing the same thing—we just changed the law in relation to ophthalmology services so that we're keeping people out of hospital. They can see their optometrist in their community and there's a whole range of illnesses now that can be treated by those optometrists who are highly skilled professionals. We are using them and using their skills at the top of their licence.
So, we are doing quite a lot of this already. And you're quite right, what we need to do is to move from an illness to a health service. And you're quite right, we all have a contribution to make in relation to that. And you are quite right also to mention those receptionists, who are no longer receptionists, they are care navigators, and it's quite a difficult system to navigate, which is why it is important that they are trained up and they are rewarded. And one of the things we did when we offered the pay award to GPs this year was to make sure that there was an offer for the people that they employed involved in that as well.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Thank you, Minister.

3. Topical Questions

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: The topical questions are next, and the first of those will be answered by the Deputy Minister for Social Partnership, and will be asked by Jack Sargeant.

The Post Office Horizon Scandal

Jack Sargeant AC: 1. What assessment has the Minister made of how the Post Office Horizon scandal continues to impact the lives of residents in Wales? TQ941

Hannah Blythyn AC: It is clear that this scandal has had a significant and devastating impact on the lives of all affected, which is why the Welsh Government has raised profound matters of concern relating to access to and miscarriage of justice issues in meetings with a succession of Secretaries of State for Justice.

Jack Sargeant AC: I'm grateful for the Minister's response there. Presiding Officer, I'm sure I'm not alone in this Chamber when I say I am sickened by the scale of injustice of the Post Office Horizon scandal. So many lives impacted, so many lives ruined. It is truly a disgrace. People in authority complicit in this injustice, and many others unwilling to look and listen when campaigners like Alan Bates asked them to do so. The scales of justice in this country are tipped towards the powerful, and basic principles like a duty of candour are missing. This is why we need the UK Government to introduce a Hillsborough law now.
Llywydd, people have lost houses. They've been made bankrupt. They've lost their life savings. They have been waiting years to clear their names and to get adequate compensation. Presiding Officer, some have tragically taken their own lives by suicide. Others have lost their lives to ill health.
Minister, will you use your office to stress to the UK Government that the compensation has to be significant enough to recognise the reality of the situation? The initial £75,000 figure announced by the Prime Minister this afternoon for the group litigation order postmasters is simply not good enough. And whilst we await the finer details of the Prime Minister's proposals, particularly those to exonerate innocent victims, will you express to the UK Ministers that speed is of the essence here? People have already passed away waiting to clear their names, and the sub-postmasters and their families should not be waiting a second longer for the compensation, justice and truth they deserve.

Hannah Blythyn AC: I thank Jack Sargeant for bringing this matter to the attention of the Senedd today, and I speak for many when I say I'm sure he is certainly not alone in his shock and in being sickened at the scale of injustice that we've seen. And too often the justice system fails ordinary people, and time and time again, lives are ruined and, as you said, tragically lost by miscarriages of justice, and then exacerbated by reticence or downright refusal to right those wrongs. And whilst I join with you in recognising the Prime Minister's statement earlier today in the House of Commons as a step in the right direction to righting those wrongs, I agree that speed and the scale of response is also of the essence. And I would also say, actually, that it's a sad reflection of our times that the seriousness of the issue that we and others have raised is now only seemingly taken seriously on the back, actually, of a very good and impactful tv drama,Mr Bates vs The Post Office.
And I just want to assure Members that the Counsel General is shortly meeting with all four UK nations, and this profoundly distressing and long-lasting miscarriage of justice will be discussed together, alongside the fundamental changes that are absolutely needed to ensure that the rule of law is more than just a soundbite.

Joel James AS: I'd like to start by thanking my colleague Jack Sargeantfor raising such an important topical question. The Horizon scandal is nothing more than a national tragedy, and it's appalling that postmasters and sub-postmasters and mistresses have been subjected to criminal proceedings and prison terms because of this. I think we all agree that the impact that it's had on so many people's lives has been devastating, and no amount of compensation can really make up for the distress that they and their families have endured.
What makes this case so alarming is that it's plainly obvious to any observer that if the Post Office was prosecuting, on average, one postmaster or mistress every week for 16 years, for exactly the same offence, then there is clearly a major flaw in the system being used, and it's scandalous that rather than properly investigate that flaw, the Post Office chose the side of software manufacturers over their own loyal and dedicated staff. Ultimately, we have to make sure that, in the digital age we now live in, systems are in place to protect workers when software problems arise and cause major discrepancies, like those seen with Horizon, and we have to face the fact that no software is foolproof, especially in this day and age of cyber crime and cyber warfare. With this in mind, Deputy Minister, for the purposes of stopping companies from erroneously prosecuting employees due to software or digital errors, what steps are the Welsh Government taking to monitor worker prosecutions? And what mechanisms do you have in place to be able to react when you observe an emerging trend? Thank you.

Hannah Blythyn AC: I thank Joel James for his contribution on this important matter. And you rightly raise the impact the scandal has had on lives and, indeed, the absolute scale of it too, the scale of the horror and the devastation that that's caused, and the amount of years it has taken to get to where we are now to right those wrongs. You used the right word—it's 'scandalous' that those loyal postmasters and loyal servants of the post service, that mean so much to all of our communities, were dismissed and not believed at the cost of their livelihoods and, in some cases, tragically, their lives. And I think you raise some really valuable and important points in terms of making sure that we work collaboratively. Obviously, justice isn't devolved, and many of the levers around some of the issues that Joel James raised are reserves by the UK Government, but it is something we will certainly be taking forward, and I know my colleague the Counsel General will be doing that in his upcoming meetings as well.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: The Horizon scandal is a tale of deep, deep injustice, and it's a tale of corporate greed, isn't it, where the shameful, unscrupulous behaviour of the powerful go unpunished, and the consequences of their failings are shifted on to ordinary, hard-working people, and the efforts of the campaigners for justice have been truly inspirational. They should never have had to put so much into such a campaign.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: I can't pay enough of a tribute to people like Noel Thomas and Lorraine Williams, two of my constituents, for their work insisting on justice. I've gotten to know Noel in recent years. He's a very special man, and thinking about him in a prison, celebrating his sixtieth birthday on his own in prison, brings a mixture of frustration, heartbreak and anger as well, and that's something that unifies us all, I hope.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: There should not have been the need for a campaign. The justice wheel, tragically, has turned far too slowly for those who have died, taken their lives, while awaiting exoneration. Both the Post Office and the UK Government, which ignored the issue for years until the din of public outrage became impossible to block out, now have serious questions to answer. And the same is true, of course, of Fujitsu, the company at the centre of the software errors that led to the wrongful prosecutions of hundreds of guiltless postal workers.
Now, I'm aware that Welsh Government has had several dealings with the company over the years. Transport for Wales currently has a five-year support and maintenance contract with Fujitsu. I have no evidence to suggest that they have been responsible for similar failings at all in Wales. But in the interest of transparency, could the Minister update the Senedd on the number of active contracts that the Government has with Fujitsu? Could the Minister also tell us how the concerns regarding their involvement in the Horizon scandal were taken into consideration before they were awarded Welsh Government contracts? And what additional due diligence will be applied to the Government's relationship with Fujitsu, now and in the future, as a result of the new public understanding of the scale of the scandal that Fujitsu was involved in? Are they fit to have contracts with Welsh Government? Is Welsh Government comfortable having contracts with the company at the heart of such a scandal?
Finally, how has Welsh Government been feeding into the establishment of the UK public inquiry on this matter? Can the Minister share with us the assurances, which I hope Government has sought, that the scope of the inquiry will provide the answers and the closure that the long-suffering postal workers in Wales and their families deserve? Diolch yn fawr.

Hannah Blythyn AC: Diolch, Rhun ap Iorwerth, and if I touch on the point around Fujitsu first, it's scandalous the role that they played and they need to be held to account as well. I should say I don't have, obviously, at my fingertips the number of active contracts with Welsh Government, but, given this is a matter of such seriousness, I wouldn't attempt to take a guess at it. And if I can, my colleagues in Government perhaps can take that point away around the company and actually come back to this Senedd with an update on that matter at a future date.
In terms of the inquiry, I know my colleague the Counsel General engaged with both the Lord Chancellor and the then Secretary of State for Justice with regard to specifically about the Post Office Horizon case, and also called for the remit of the terms of the reference of the inquiry to be widened to take into account some of the underlying justice system issues raised by these cases. And I'm sure he will continue to do so and follow that up at the meeting that he has upcoming as well.
Finally, I'd like to join you in—. It shouldn't have had to happen, it shouldn't have happened, they shouldn't have had to campaign for justice. The justice system should be there to support ordinary people, not to support the most powerful, and I'd like to join you and everybody here in paying tribute to the tenacity and the bravery of the campaigners and people who were affected, like your constituent, Noel Thomas, and wish them well for the future and commit here that we will work together and give all of our collective efforts to play our part in ensuring those historic wrongs are finally righted.

Jenny Rathbone AC: I'd like to agree with Rhun ap Iorwerth that Noel Thomas is indeed a very special man, and I was given to understand that, once he'd won the overturning of his conviction back in 2021, along with others—. His comments were so powerful I was given the impression that this matter was resolved, and I took my eye off the ball on this one. So, I think the matter is absolutely front stage of the agenda at the moment, but we need to ensure that this, really, the worst scandal of the twenty-first century involving a public organisation, needs to be put to bed, and all these people who've been wrongfully convicted on an industrial scale—on an industrial scale—they really do need to get their money back and be compensated for all the pain and suffering that they and their families have had.
So, I would just like to urge all those backbenchers to sign the statement of opinion that I posted yesterday, because I think we just need to send that to the UK Parliament and the UK Government, because we can't resolve this issue in this place; we don't have those powers. And I look forward, Minister, to hearing just how many contracts we do have with Fujitsu, because it seems to me that there needs to be some reflection as to whether this is a company that is in line with the Social Partnership and Public Procurement (Wales) Act 2023.

Hannah Blythyn AC: Diolch, Jenny Rathbone. I think you're right in saying that this issue has very much been brought back to public notice by the ITV drama, Mr Bates vs The Post Office. I've been struck by so many people that have actually contacted me or just had a conversation in terms of actually thinking that justice had been served and realising it hadn't, but also the sheer scale of it and the impact that it had on people's lives. Like I said, it destroyed livelihoods and the lives of so many innocent sub-postmasters and mistresses, and you're obviously right—those affected now deserve to have both their reputations restored and to be paid the compensation that they deserve, and I very much hope that that happens as soon as possible. And you raise an important point of the role that everybody here has to play in terms of making sure that we use our powers of persuasion and the levers we have at our disposal to make sure that that historic justice is wrong adequately and fully as soon as is possible.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: I'd like to thank our colleague Jack for bringing this again to the floor of this Senedd and for all the comments, because it's nice and heartening to see that we're all united. We've all been affected by this in terms of even people we didn't know, watching the programme. I was really shocked, and my husband was watching it with me last week, and we were both reduced to tears. Now, just for interest here, I would like to commend Mr Alan Bates. Alan and his wife Suzanne ran the post office in the ward where I live and the ward where I have my business. I was in there most days. I knew him and his wife Suzanne for many years. They ran a very efficient, friendly and much-valued post office alongside a wool counter. We were all shocked when the post office closed, but even I didn’t know—. Whilst I knew of his own personal battle, I didn’t know that he was using his energy, his determination and his courage to work on behalf of so many, and I understand that, since the programme was aired, lots more distressed sub-postmasters and mistresses are coming forward now and saying, ‘That happened to me.' So, I just genuinely believe that we do have a part here as Welsh politicians. I saw Mr Thomas and the real story as well as the drama, and you couldn’t really put a hair between. There was no contradiction from the real story and the drama. It was superbly put out. But, as far as I’m concerned, every single person involved in this horrendous scandal needs to be brought to justice themselves now. We need those who’ve been accused wrongfully to be exonerated fully, and I look forward to a debate on this with the Counsel General here sometime so that we can establish more exactly how those talks are going on with the UK Government. Diolch.

Hannah Blythyn AC: Thank you, Janet Finch-Saunders, for that really passionate and moving contribution. I think it demonstrates—. You talk about that people will have seen Alan Bates now through the drama, and it actually shows the power of drama to pursue a cause, where it shouldn't be needed, but the difference that it can make. I'm sure Members will be grateful for the way in which you've shared your reflections and also the impact that this has had on so many individuals, but so many communities, like you say, as well, emphasising, as I think we've all made in the Siambr today, the need to not—. This has come to the fore as a consequence of that drama over the Christmas period, but we should not let that go now, and ensure that we work collaboratively and collectively to ensure justice is served all round. I'm sure that my colleague the Counsel General won't mind me committing on his behalf to update this place on the development of his discussions and representations on this issue as well.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Finally, Carolyn Thomas.

Carolyn Thomas AS: Diolch, Llywydd. I was a post office clerk at the time, and this has brought back to me issues we were dealing with in our branch, not realising it was not an isolated incident. Also, Hilary Isherwood, Mark's wife, worked there at the same time. The issues weren't to the scale of those portrayed but I didn't realise—. I thought it was just our branch, and we resolved it, to a certain extent. But the programme's refreshed my memory of that time. The branch did close a couple of years later under Government rationalisation measures. We did have a protest, but it still happened. But I just want to ask: how can we encourage those who have been impacted by the scandal, including my ex-postmistress, and have not yet come forward to do so? Because this programme's probably made them think. It might not have been to the scale of those in the programme, but they might have had to pay some money back at the time as well.

Hannah Blythyn AC: Thank you to my colleague, friend, Carolyn Thomas, for sharing your reflections too. I think that just hits to the heart of the matter, doesn't it, that so many people thought it was just them and suffered in isolation, when actually it wasn't a problem with them, it was a problem with the system, and a system that has failed people on so many levels—[Inaudible.] It's way past time for those failures to be rectified. I think Janet Finch-Saunders touched on it too, in terms of that the programme has demonstrated to people—perhaps they might not have realised—that it wasn't just them, and the need to come forward for them to receive justice as well. So, perhaps, following this question in the Siambr today, we can make sure that we have the information that as Members we can perhaps share through our own networks and connections so, if people do feel they've been affected and haven't had support or access to any form of justice, that they may be supported to come forward at this point now.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Thank you, Deputy Minister. The next question will be answered by the Deputy Minister for Climate Change, and will be asked by Sam Rowlands.

Arriva Bus Services in North Wales

Sam Rowlands AS: 2. Will the Welsh Government make a statement on Arriva changing every bus service in North Wales as a result of Wales' default 20 mph speed limit? TQ946

Lee Waters AC: Well, we've been clear that we'd like to learn from the introduction of the 20 mph and make improvements. We've always recognised there would be an impact on some bus services, and we're now reviewing the guidance issued to local authorities, and impacts on buses are part of that review.

Sam Rowlands AS: Thank you, Deputy Minister, and thank you, Llywydd, for allowing this topical question here today. People who use public transport in north Wales, the region I represent, now find themselves in an even more difficult position as a direct result of Welsh Government's default 20 mph speed limit. Bus provider Arriva is having to change every one of their bus services in north Wales, not the few perhaps the Deputy Minister wants to allude to due to, as they describe it, 'challenging operational conditions'.
Now these changes include a number of locations in my region that are no longer going to be served by a bus—with one example, raised by Darren Millar yesterday, being the village of Llandegla—and severe reductions for other parts of my region. The Llandudno to Prestatyn service will now operate hourly and will no longer call into places like Llandudno Junction railway station or into Llysfaen; the Bangor to Beaumaris service is being reduced to operate every 75 minutes. These are significant settlements, Bangor, Llandudno, Prestatyn—tens of thousands of people living in these settlements having their bus services reduced even further.
All this, of course, has a significant negative impact on my constituents. It makes their lives more difficult. It's going to affect their jobs, their families, their social lives—all because of an unwanted roll-out of a 20 mph default speed limit. This, of course, is in stark contrast to the Welsh Government's stated aim of getting people onto public transport. What has been implemented is a policy that actively forces people to not be able to access that public transport and instead increases dependency on cars.
Now, Welsh Government has, of course, also been overseeing a long decline of buses in Wales. COVID did hasten the decline of bus passengers, but bus journeys per capita in Wales were on the slide way before then. They declined a quarter between 2005 and 2019 and have been amongst the slowest to recover post pandemic. But it's the implementation of the default 20 mph that is pushing them over the edge and, sadly, this whole thing has been predictable. These issues were even raised in this Chamber by myself and others but were, sadly, falling on deaf ears.
Of course, the whole thing then exacerbates the issue of funding for our bus services, both to taxpayers and to bus users, as they will cost more to run and that cost has to be met somewhere. And we've already seen a huge adjustment this year in funding into public transport from the Welsh Government and the ongoing impact of the default 20 mph will only make this worse—again, predicted by those in this Chamber, predicted also by Professor Stuart Cole, to again fall onto deaf ears. So, it is clear in this evidence we've seen again now in north Wales that Welsh Government's public transport policy is failing the people we represent, especially my residents in north Wales. So, I'd like to know, Llywydd, from the Deputy Minister today if he's satisfied with these bus routes in north Wales being slashed and what exactly he's going to do to fix the mess that's been made.

Lee Waters AC: Well, there are lots of challenges facing the bus industry and it's too easy to blame it all on the new speed limit. I'd like to deal with a number of the issues raised in turn, with your patience, Llywydd.
First of all, let's remember why we decided to reduce the speed limit in built-up areas. It was to save lives and cut casualties. I set up an expert group to work with delivery partners to design an implementation plan that would work in practice. It did work with Transport for Wales, which showed the impact on journey times would be marginal and they recommended that we take the approach of a national default speed limit rather than the street-by-street approach that existed before and was seen to have failed its objectives. Now, that default speed limit approach was put to the Senedd andit was overwhelmingly approved, including by the majority of the Conservative group. So, let's remember that. This approach was agreed by the whole Senedd and endorsed by most Conservatives, and the record shows that.
Now, over the last three months we've moved from the pilot phase to the full roll-out and that has inevitably highlighted some issues that need addressing. And I said at the outset that we would not get this right on day one, and that we would review its implementation, and that's what we're doing. We set out guidance for local authorities to make exceptions to the default speed limit and councils are best placed to apply this to their own local roads; after all, legally, they are the local highway authority. Now, we know from the data that we have published, and which the Senedd Research Service analysed, that the proportion of roads still at 30 mph now varies greatly between councils, from over 10 per cent in Swansea and Bridgend to under 1 per cent in the four north Wales authorities. So, clearly, councils do have the power to exempt some roads where they feel it's justified, and whether a street is on a major bus route is, obviously, something that they can take into consideration.
This change hasn't been made in secret. Bus operators had all of the information about changes to speed limits available to them to allow them to adequately plan for the introduction of 20 mph. Some bus operators, like Cardiff Bus, made changes to their timetable in advance of the speed limit change; Arriva and First Cymru chose not to, while Stagecoach said that the new speed limit would have no impact and that they did not plan to change their timetables. Now, we know that all companies have been struggling with driver recruitment, and that has affected their ability to keep to their timetables. We also know that many of them wanted to make changes to some routes to reflect the way passengers are now travelling, or not travelling, after COVID, and these were all factors in the timetable changes.
We've seen claims before this week that the speed limit was to blame for delays, and we've asked the bus companies for their data to help us understand that. We've had some and we are waiting for more, and I'm perfectly prepared to accept that there are some routes where buses are moving too slowly. I'm not convinced that the automatic response to that is to revert all bus routes to 30 mph. I don't think the right answer is to allow some of the heaviest and largest vehicles on our roads to drive the fastest in built-up areas where people and traffic are mixing.
We want more people to choose to use the bus, and we know that for years the bus companies have said that congestion is a major problem that impacts bus reliability. Three years ago, in the Wales transport strategy, we said that we wanted to encourage bus priority measures, like bus lanes and priority lights, to give buses a head start in busy traffic, and we know that this improves bus journey times and improves reliability. In this financial year, we've committed £6 million for bus priority schemes and over £5 million for the next financial year, and I want to see bus priority measures prioritised in bids from local authorities and included in the regional transport plans they are developing.
Where there are streets where it would make sense for traffic to travel at 30 mph, we have encouraged councils to take a commonsense approach. I've talked about applying a sniff test; we should ask, 'Does this feel right?' If people are being asked to drive slower on a street, it needs to make sense why. If it doesn't, people will tend to ignore the limit and we risk undermining the whole approach. After three months, we've all had the chance to get used to the change, and I must say, in my own personal experience, anecdotal as it is, as a driver, I think people are driving slower; not driving exactly at 20 mph, but, in my experience, around the 25 mph mark, and that's what we expected to happen initially. We hope, as the change settles in and as enforcement begins, we'll see that fall further, because for every drop in the average speed by 1 mph, casualties drop by 6 per cent.
We'll be publishing the first of the regular six-monthly monitoring reports in due course, and we'll have some solid data to compare to my own anecdotal experience. But, I must say, I do find stretches where people are ignoring the speed limit, and, in some cases, that's because it does fail the sniff test. There was always going to be a bedding-in period, and built into the powers that councils have as local highway authorities is the ability to make changes. We know that local authorities are already collating lists where 20 mph doesn't feel like the right speed. They understandably haven't wanted to act hastily as people were getting used to the change, but they do want to review and revise their local speed limits. Nobody anticipates that this will involve wholesale changes, and will focus on addressing anomalies. I've asked Phil Jones, who's leading the review for us, to consider whether further tweaks to the guidance on exceptions would be helpful, for example, by explicitly including major bus routes as one of the local criteria they can consider.
We've been clear that we will continually monitor any impacts of the new speed limit on bus services and we will continue to work with operators, local authorities and TfW to tackle the wider challenges undoubtedly facing the bus industry. Diolch.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: I was going to ask you about what the real motive was here, but I think you've touched on that, in fairness, Deputy Minister, because I've been asked by some of my electors whether—. You know, the change in speed limit probably is a driver for this, but I think there are other drivers for these changes that are playing out in terms of the wider challenges facing the sector. But I think you've probably had your say on that.
So, can I ask you what you would have expected from a company like Arriva when it comes to implementing these changes? Because I've had constituents contact me who had no idea that these changes were coming and are reading about it in the press, and are really disappointed that they weren't engaged as users, regular users of these services, and that they weren't given an opportunity through a consultation process to say what they had to say about any proposals that were being prepared. Was there an equality impact assessment? I don't know. If there wasn't, then there should have been, because obviously it's such an important part of people being able to access jobs and services, as we've heard. And there's a proposed new stop—Llandeglawas mentioned yesterday—on the main road, which, I believe, is on private land. The owner has no intention of allowing that land to be used. So, does this not all point to quite a botched job from Arriva when it comes to actually changing services, whatever the motive is?

The Deputy Presiding Officer (David Rees) took the Chair.

Lee Waters AC: Well, I think Llyr Gruffydd has highlighted perfectly some of the flaws in the current privatised bus service that we have, because these companies are commercial companies; they can do, essentially, as they like. We can make pleas to them, but unless we've got money to give them, direct subsidy, to run routes that we define as socially necessary, they don't have to take any notice. And I am frustrated that it's taken until now for them to re-jig their timetables given, as I said, that Cardiff Bus did this in advance of the change in the speed limit, and I do think it's a shame that they're trying to blame the 20 mph speed limit for a whole range of different things.
As I said, I'm not dogmatic about this; I'm perfectly prepared to accept that there are areas where changes can be made, and let's work together to achieve those, because we want this to bed in successfully. But without bringing in the new bus Bill and the powers to regulate the bus industry, things like equality impact assessments and consultations and working with staff and strategically planning where routes ought to go, based on need rather than on profit, are impossible to force on a privatised, fragmented industry, and that's why, this year, we'll be bringing in legislation to this Senedd, to change that.

Carolyn Thomas AS: Arriva have done a punctuality review of 90 per cent of their services—its impact on 90 per cent of their services. I was alerted to the issue by the community of Llandegla, so, over the last week, I've met with Llandegla residents and I've also been working with stakeholders to try and address the issue to come up with a solution. I've been contacting Transport for Wales and the local authority and I visited Arriva's depot as well, and I looked at their graphs and listened to them—there were union representatives there as well—and I did see in the graphs that where, before, there was 80 per cent compliance, that had reduced 60 per cent in some areas because of the 20 mph speed limit. So, I've been working with all these stakeholders trying to find a solution for Llandegla. It looks like there is going to be one; I've just seen an e-mail from Arriva, who've been working with Denbighshire on that.
I think that looking at the arterial routes that the buses use, that will be a solution going forward, and putting down double-yellow lines as well, where there is congestion in some areas. I know that in the village of Llandegla where the bus has to do a three-point turn, there are double-yellow lines, and in Buckley, there was an issue of congestion there and the double-yellow lines have helped. Putting in bus routes and also promoting them, so that we can get more passengers on the buses, is all part of that whole package, going forward.
But, I think, by Arriva now working with Transport for Wales and with the local authority, looking at certain roads that can be increased to 30 mph, and the review that the Deputy Minister said would happen is happening—and I'm really pleased to hear today that he said that they will be looking at bus routes—by working together, we're finding solutions in north Wales and some will hopefully continue, and it sounds like that will be happening in Llandegla. I'm sorry that's not a question, because you answered my question earlier, saying that you were agreeing to add key bus routes along arterial routes to be part of the exceptions criteria, so I thank you for that. So, Deputy Minister, would you agree that that is a good idea? Thank you.

Lee Waters AC: Thanks, Carolyn Thomas, for that, and for the work that she's doing in north Wales to try and address practical solutions to these problems.
These are not straightforward judgments, because we've heard often in this Chamber those who oppose our policy, but support 20 mph, they say, outside schools, outside hospitals and in residential areas. Indeed, if you look at the criteria we have, in fact, they say 20 mph should be outside schools, outside hospitals, outside residential areas, outside shops and outside community centres. So, we seem to agree in principle that 20 mph is appropriate in built-up areas, the judgment then is where is it appropriate, where is it not appropriate, and that's what the exemptions criteria are there for, to allow authorities that flexibility.
Now, of course, in principle, it's easy for us to say that, but when they're applied to different roads, it's often very complex. I sympathise with local authorities about the judgments they have to make, because you have some roads that may be on an arterial route, but also are near a school, near houses, near a play area. So, are we then saying that because they're on an arterial bus route, they therefore should be 30 mph, even though vulnerable road users are mixing with traffic? Now, that is not a straightforward judgment, is it, and that's I think a judgment best made locally. So, where Arriva have examples of that particularly affecting their punctuality, there's a process for them to go to the local authority, to make the case and to ask the local authority to use its discretion, which it has.
It's very difficult for us, I think, in the Welsh Government to say street by street, 'This is exactly what you should do.' We don't have the legal powers to do that, for a start; they sit with the local authority. But also I think the problem is many of the arguments made, particularly by the Conservatives here, are very general and high level, and they don't tell us how they're going to apply in practice. Now, the logic of their position is that we do it street by street, which is what we did before. In that case, you have to have a traffic regulation Order for every street. That would cost an absolute fortune, and they say we've wasted money on this process. It would have cost considerably more if we took their advice, and that's why the independent expert taskforce recommended a default approach, which was supported by the Conservatives in this place.
It's true that when the regulations were made, there was a change of leadership, and Andrew R.T. Davies saw a populist opportunity to try and create some division, and their position changed. But on the principled approach, which was the taskforce report that said, should we take a default approach to it, the support of—. I don't have the names in front of me, but, from memory, I think we had Janet Finch-Saunders, Laura Anne Jones, Russell George, and the principled approach to take was supported by the Conservatives—

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: For you to go hold a consultation. We voted against the—

Lee Waters AC: Janet is saying that she only voted for going forward in consultation. That's not true. You should read the motions you vote on, Janet. That is not what the motion said, and I ask you to go back and check what you voted for. It explicitly said in the motion your group supported that this was a default speed limit approach, and that's what we've done. Within the default speed limit is the ability to make exceptions, but they are often, in practice, complex judgments to make.

Mark Isherwood AC: Just to set the record straight, the Deputy Minister refers to a vote on 15 July 2020 on a Welsh Government debate introducing 20 mph speed limits in Wales, and we had a free vote and we split. I abstained, for the record. But on the binding vote on 12 July 2022, on the legislation that brought in the default 20 mph limit, a vote on the Restricted Roads (20 mph Speed Limit) (Wales) Order, the Welsh Conservatives voted unanimously against, two years after the non-binding vote that you keep quoting.
Early last month, I met with Arriva Buses Wales at their depot in New Broughton, Wrexham, when their head of commercial north-west and Wales emphasised what he described as the horrendous impact on their services of the Welsh Government's reduction of the default speed limit in Wales to 20 mph. He explained that the changes being introduced by Arriva Buses Wales result from the impact of this on their services.
I again contacted them last week about the changes to the X51 bus service through Llandegla village after receiving, as Carolyn Thomas did, correspondence from affected residents there. How therefore do you respond to their unambiguous reply, as follows?
'As we discussed in Wrexham, Arriva do not want to change services, but have to because of 20 mph. We would not be changing 90 per cent of the network in north Wales otherwise. The issue we have now is that, because of 20 mph, the buses are taking longer to operate across north Wales, so we’ve had to register changes that have seen route curtailment, frequency reduction and additional resource to cope with the new running times required.'
That’s what they stated. What is your response to that factual statement, unambiguous, and how are you going to engage directly with them to ensure understanding of where the real problems lie?

Lee Waters AC: As I said, I’m very keen to engage further with them. We’ve engaged a lot; in fact, we’ve saved them from bankruptcy. So, we have relationships with Arriva and we want to see the data. We want to understand the impacts, and we want them to engage with their local authorities. I put the question to him: why is it that Denbighshire has only got 0.6 per cent of its roads as exceptions for 30 mph; Conwy, 0.8 per cent; Flintshire, 0.9 per cent; Wrexham, 1.2 per cent; Gwynedd, 1.9 per cent; when Swansea has 10 per cent, Bridgend has 10 per cent, Blaenau Gwent has almost 10 per cent, and the list is in the public domain?
The local authorities in north Wales have had the ability to create exemptions, and they’ve chosen not to. It may well be that’s what’s causing some of the difficulties for Arriva and a more nuanced, granular approach would be better. That is able to be fixed. That is something where we can work with them and they can work with the local authorities to apply some common sense. As I said in the answer to the earlier question, in practice, sometimes these judgments are not black and white and we have to take a balance of considerations into account. There’s nothing in principle that stops a different approach being taken, but keeping 20 mph where people and traffic are mixing.
On his first point on the non-binding vote, which the group split, it was only a non-binding vote in the Welsh Conservative whip’s office. It was a binding vote of this Senedd on a motion from the Government based on their report, and this Senedd voted to accept the approach in the report. That was a binding report of this National Assembly. The fact that the Conservatives decided not to whip on it doesn’t make it a non-binding vote. Of course, you’re right that when the regulations came through, the Conservatives changed their position, and those who had supported the approach set out changed their view without explaining why. I think we can all guess why: because Andrew R.T. Davies and the social media team in the Conservatives central office spotted an opportunity to create division and launch culture wars. They misled people by saying this was a blanket ban, and created huge confusion when very clearly it is not a blanket ban. [Interruption.] He knows that’s nonsense; he’s resolutely sticking to his position, but he’s wrong.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: I would like to hear the responses, and I think the voices coming from the opposition benches at the moment are drowning out what I hear from the Deputy Minister, so please give the opportunity to let all hear what’s being said.

Gareth Davies AS: I’d like to expand more on the local element to this news from Arriva Buses Wales and how it has impacted the people in the Vale of Clwyd, as it was announced yesterday that Arriva are axing the X51 bus service between Rhyl and Denbigh as result of the Welsh Government’s 20 mph policy. This is a frequently used service that gives people the opportunity to get from A to B. As I mentioned yesterday in my remarks, my constituency has a high volume of elderly people who rely on these day-to-day services in a largely rural area and also access shopping facilities in the Tweedmill factory outlet and other facilities along the route.
Given that 13,584 people in the Vale of Clwyd have signed the Senedd petition against the Welsh Government’s 20 mph policy, it could be argued that the mandate for this policy in my constituency is rather slim, to say the least. This policy is having a detrimental impact on the local economy, day-to-day services and local people in Denbighshire, with a reluctance to look at tangible exemptions to relieve the impact of this policy from the local authority in comparison to neighbouring areas in Flintshire and Conwy. You’ve just mentioned the statistic itself that only 0.6 per cent of roads in Denbighshire have been subject to exemptions, and it’s been locally reported that it’s because of difficulties in navigating through the complexities of the exemption system and the qualifying criteria. Is it time to stop saving face and admit that you've got this policy wrong for people in Denbighshire and work in the best interests of my constituents, who largely continue to be up in arms with the 20 mph policy and the arrogance from the Welsh Government in you not willing to work within the best interests of people in Denbighshire? They're not my words, that's the voice of my constituents on a large scale. Thank you.

Lee Waters AC: You've repeated those words in the Senedd and I reject them, because my motivation is to save lives and reduce casualties. If this policy isn't working, I am more than happy to change position and to change my mind. I want this to work because it will save lives, and it's now about the implementation of it to make sure that we get that right. There is discretion for local authorities. He mentions a difficulty navigating the criteria; well, all those other local authorities in Wales haven't had difficulty in navigating the criteria, so I don't know what's particularly troublesome for the six north Wales authorities that they've had difficulty navigating the same criteria that local authorities in south Wales and other parts of Wales have applied perfectly straightforwardly.
Also, it's worth saying that this is guidance; the power sits with the local highway authority. We do not have the power to make decisions for them. We can set the guidance, we can set the legislation, we can provide the funding, but the decisions on individual roads and individual exemptions are for the local authority, rightly, to make, and we're working with them now as part of the review to understand why some have been able to issue a number of exemptions while others have been very cautious to do so. Is it a problem with the guidance? Is it a problem of their confidence to move beyond the exact letter of the guidance? I think there are a range of issues at play here and we want to understand that and work with local authorities to get the right outcome. It is frustrating that it isn't perfect from the beginning. With such a big change and such a complex change, it was never going to be, but I'm confident we can get there and I will certainly not be obdurate along the way.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Finally, Darren Millar.

Darren Millar AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Minister, people rely on bus services; they're essential services for many people, particularly if you're in a rural area, in a village like Llandegla, where it's impossible to get anywhere if you don't have a car and without accessible public transport. People are upset about the loss of the service in the village, and I, along with others, as you've heard, have been working to try and challenge Arriva about its decision. We want to see the Welsh Government and other stakeholders working with them to get that service restored so that it can continue in perpetuity into the future.
With regard to your 20 mph policy, one of the things that I remember raising in the Senedd at the time, when we had the original debate prior to the regulations, was, 'Look, why don't you just change the law to make it easier for local authorities to introduce a 20 mph limit without the onerous traffic regulation order process?' That was an option that you could have delivered, but you chose to go down the default route, which has caused angst; we all know it's caused angst, and no doubt certainly is a factor in some of these longer bus journeys that people are facing and the punctuality problems that are arising.
You said there's going to be a review, and that was announced, obviously, late last year. I'm pleased that there is a review and that part of that review is going to look at bus services, but we need a clear timescale for the outcome of that review. If people are going to pull these services now, which is what's happening in north Wales—. And it's not just the 51 service to Llandegla; we've also got problems in terms of people accessing hospital appointments in Bodelwyddan, which is also on important bus routes. The frequency of those journeys has been reduced from 40 minutes last year to an hour now. That's a problem for people who are going to be stacked in hospitals wanting to get out in order that they can get back to their day-to-day lives after their appointments. So, I'd like to know what the timescale for the review is, if you can give us some information on that.
Just finally, the Government seems to have lots of resource to throw at its own nationalised rail service, which is one of the important services that people rely on to get around in terms of public transport. You gave £125 million to Transport for Wales just before Christmas without publishing any sort of business plan and making that available to Members of the Senedd so that we could look at that and determine whether that was an appropriate decision or not, yet you seem to begrudge giving bus operators, who are also delivering vital services, the resources that they need to be able to provide those public transport opportunities for the residents that we all serve in this Chamber. Those double standards, frankly, are unacceptable. We need you to be working positively with the bus sector, not holding up a crucifix and saying, 'We want you to stay away because you are evil, because you are private bus operators and private businesses'—that is unacceptable. We need to see a different attitude towards private business from this Welsh Government, and that means working with these bus operators to make sure that they can deliver the sorts of services that people need.

Lee Waters AC: Thank you. There are a number of issues there. Let me go in reverse order, because that was an absurd point to finish on—the idea that we see private businesses as evil. We have rescued these private businesses. If it wasn't for the Welsh Government, there wouldn't be a bus industry in Wales, and they recognise that fully. That is an absurd comment he made, which let down a number of sensible points that he did make.
The point on the privatisation is that we do not have the power to tell them what to do. We can't plan a strategic service. They make their own commercial decisions, and unless we have the money to incentivise them to do otherwise, we have no control. We cannot regulate. Darren Millar needs to read the Transport Act 1985. We will, through our franchising powers, have the ability to have a different system, but as things stand, under our current powers, we simply do not, so he's just factually wrong about that.
On the issue of rail versus bus subsidy, that's a really interesting point that he makes, and a great frustration of mine. Again, we do have the issue that this is a fragmented commercial service that we can't apply a strategic direction and framework and funding envelope to easily. That's what hopefully will be sorted out by franchising. But also, the problem with railways is of course they are very expensive to run and they are fixed costs. So, if we were to decide today that because of our budget situation we wanted to stop all rail services in Wales, we would still have to pay more than 90 per cent of the costs, because they are things like access charges, they are staff wages, they are infrastructure costs, which we can't flex. So, yes, there was a £125 million gap in next year's budget, but that was because the assumptions in the franchise were no longer relevant because inflation had risen and passenger numbers had dropped. But it's not simply a case to say, 'Oh, well, we won't give them that money, then', because if we didn't give them that money, the whole rail system would then collapse. So, it's a far more rigid system than the bus system, which, because, ironically, it is fragmented and commercial, is easier to flex, which works against its own interests, which is why we want to put that on a more strategic footing. You're suggesting that if the railway industry was a private industry we'd have that flexibility, and that, I'm afraid, just completely misunderstands the economics of the railway industry, which I have to say, are pretty crackers. But that's the system that we have.
He's also wrong to say that we should simply have made it easier for local authorities to pass traffic regulation orders on individual roads. That is not the legislative framework that we operate within on a UK level. We don't have the power to change it, and that's why we set up an expert group to look pragmatically within the powers we have at what we can do, in what order we do it, and how to work with delivery partners to do it pragmatically. That's the report that we brought forward. That's the report that was supported by this Senedd and a majority of the Conservative group. Now it's about implementing that in practice, and there, I think, we need to decouple the issue of the 20 mph and the crisis facing the bus industry. I, too, have had problems in my own constituency, with First Cymru withdrawing bus services, reducing services to Kidwelly and to Llanelli, and it's caused great angst. That, I'm afraid, is the reality of the bus service we currently have, with the austerity funding that we have from Westminster, so we can't put more subsidy in unless we make significant cuts elsewhere. The commercial services themselves aren't sustainable, given declining passenger numbers because of COVID, and, of course, the spiral of decline we've had in bus use, as Sam Rowlands pointed out at the start, which again has been a function of transport policy more generally across the UK. That's why we've set out in 'Llwybr Newydd' to try and take a different direction.
My frustration is that the changes we're putting in place will take some years to bear the benefits of, whereas we have a short-term crisis, the seeds of which were set long before I came into office. We are doing our best to put us on the right course in the future. I am still confident that slower speeds in areas where people live is the right policy. I don't accept, without strong data to show it, that this disadvantages buses. Where the disadvantage currently exists, that can be amended through a common-sense approach to exemptions.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Thank you, Deputy Minister.

4. 90-second Statements

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Item 4 is the 90-second statements. The first statement will be from Mike Hedges.

Mike Hedges AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. Tomorrow is Less Survivable Cancers Awareness Day. It is a chance to shine a spotlight on cancers of the brain, liver, lung, stomach, oesophagus and pancreas. These cancers are, unfortunately, united in stubbornly low survival rates and an average in the UK of only 16 per cent of people with a less-survivable cancer will live for five years or more. For these six diseases, survival rates have not meaningfully improved in decades. I have met with representatives from the less-survivable cancers taskforce and people who have been personally affected by these deadly cancers, as I have.
Data shows that, out of 33 countries of comparable wealth and income levels, Wales ranks as low as thirty-first for a five-year survivor of stomach cancer, and thirtieth for pancreatic and lung cancer. This rises to twenty-first for liver, twentieth for oesophageal cancer, and twelfth for brain cancer. This poor survivability for less-survivable cancers is similar across all UK nations. I, like many people, remember when the five-year survival rate of all cancers was low. The less-survivable cancers still suffer from low awareness amongst the public and health practitioners. Delay in diagnosis has a detrimental affect on survival of these rapidly advancing diseases, which are currently difficult or impossible to treat at later stages. If you have a less-survivable cancer, you are twice as likely not to be diagnosed until your symptoms are severe enough to go to hospital, compared to somebody with a more survivable cancer. Late diagnosis and slow pathway to treatment can severely limit treatment options for patients, who then face poor survival prospects.

Sarah Murphy AS: It is a privilege to pay tribute to an icon of Welsh and world rugby today, J.P.R. Williams. It is impossible to do him justice in 90 seconds, but I am going to try my best, because the outpouring of condolences from across Wales has been overwhelming and, everywhere I go, I can hear people sharing their fondest memories and stories.
Many of us became aware of J.P.R.'s passing through Bridgend Ravens rugby club where J.P.R. was one of Bridgend's most decorated players, and also served the club most recently as club president. Born in Bridgend, the son of a two GPs, J.P.R. began his senior rugby career at the Brewery Field where his father was also president and club doctor. Aged just 19, J.P.R. was first capped by Wales in 1969. He would go on to serve our nation a further 54 times, five of which were as captain and, as was noted by the Llywydd yesterday, undefeated by the England team in any of his matches.
J.P.R. also qualified as a physician in 1973, and in 1986 he was appointed a consultant in trauma and orthopaedic surgery at the Princess of Wales hospital in Bridgend. He truly did so much for our community. I think his close friend, former Wales and Lions flanker John Taylor, summed him up brilliantly when he said:
'His ability for hard work was incredible. He would have all his text books out and be doing his medical studies in the hotel room before an international. But he was also a real fun animal and loved nothing better than the crack with the boys.'
Dirprwy Lywydd, I'm sure everyone in our Senedd today will join me in paying tribute to one of Wales’s finest and offer our condolences to his friends and family at this sad time. A legend of the game, a son of Bridgend, Wales couldn't be prouder. Rest in peace J.P.R. Williams, and thank you for the memories. Diolch.

Sam Rowlands AS: I want to speak today to celebrate and recognise a choir in my region, Côr Meibion Maelgwn. A choir is the lifeblood of many parts of Wales and part of our nation’s fabric, of course, and Côr Meibion Maelgwn is no exception at all. They offer fantastic performances, as you'd expect in a great choral tradition, and their talent has been recognised by the Welsh National Opera when they took park in the operetta Blaze of Glory in Venue Cymru. They've also been recognised internationally, being experienced globetrotters, with destinations ranging from Slovenia, to the USA and Israel.
But in particular I want to highlight them today as their global awareness includes support for Ukraine, and the group displays the Ukrainian flag and dedicates the song You'll Never Walk Alone at every opportunity to remind their audiences of Ukraine's continued fight against Putin's illegal war. The choir, in my mind, is a great example of not just supporting local charities, promoting our Welsh language and culture and creating communities, but also remembering the importance of support for those caught up in the ongoing atrocities in Ukraine. So, from me and this Senedd, diolch yn fawr iawn i chi, and thank you for doing your part in remembering those in Ukraine. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: I thank the three Members.

5. Debate on the Equality and Social Justice Committee Report, 'Calling time on child poverty: how Wales can do better'

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Item 5 is a debate on the Equality and Social Justice Committee report, 'Calling time on child poverty: how Wales can do better', and I call on the Chair of the committee to move the motion—Jenny Rathbone.

Motion NDM8446 Jenny Rathbone
To propose that the Senedd:
Notes the Equality and Social Justice Committee report: 'Calling time on child poverty: how Wales can do better' laid on 6 November 2023.

Motion moved.

Jenny Rathbone AC: Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer. So, what is the size of the problem of child poverty? The Department for Work and Pensions, the department that decides how much financial support society should give to families with children, calculates that nine children in a class of 30 live in households too poor to afford the basics in life. That appalling statistic alone should spur us on to marshal whatever resources Wales controls to make Wales a more equal country for children. This is not a new problem, nor is it unique to Wales, but we have reached a critical junction on this journey.

Jenny Rathbone AC: The purpose of our committee inquiry was to critique the Welsh Government's draft child poverty strategy, with a view to influencing its final iteration of its next 10-year plan to be published by the Government later this month. In addition to core committee members representing the four parties in the Senedd, we had the benefit of Jayne Bryant's contribution to our work, in her capacity as Chair of the Children, Young People and Education Committee, and we're very grateful to her and them for sharing with us some of the disturbing evidence they have gathered as part of their ongoing inquiry into the struggle families with disabled children have in exercising their right to childcare.
Before I go any further, I do want to thank our clerk, Rhys Morgan, and our researcher, Gareth Thomas, for the outstanding work they did in redrafting, on more than one occasion, our report to make it succinct, to the point, and drafted so as to command the unanimous support of all committee members, based on the evidence we gathered.
In Wales we still have less child poverty than in six of the nine English regions, after housing costs are taken into account, and only Northern Ireland and London have seen a bigger reduction in child poverty than Wales. But there is no room for complacency, because the consequences are severe. I refer you to the infographic on page 15 of our report, which includes the facts that not only are pupils on free school meals 28 per cent less likely to get a good GCSE than pupils who are not eligible, children brought up in poverty are four times more likely to develop a mental health problem by the age of 11, and adults who grow up in poverty as a child lose out, it is estimated, on £12 billion in lost earnings as a result of their likelihood of being unemployed or in low employment. That's on page 11, sorry—I got my pages wrong.
So, the evidence from stakeholders, including the children's commissioner, the Bevan Foundation, and many others, was that the draft strategy as published lacked ambition and shied away from establishing clear lines of accountability, including for how it was going to deliver on its promises. The NSPCC sums up the frustration expressed by many others by wanting more focus on what the Welsh Government can do to address child poverty, rather than a focus on what it cannot do. Nobody disputes that many of the policy levers that will have the greatest impact in terms of redistributing wealth and reducing inequalities are not in Cardiff, but reserved to Westminster, but that does not alter the committee's deep concern that the draft strategy lacks the strategic vision needed to deliver the step change in tackling child poverty we want for Welsh children.
There was widespread, bordering on universal unease at the lack of targets and milestones within the draft strategy. The committee shared the view of our witnesses and are clear that the Welsh Government must overcome its aversion to setting targets. That is because the evidence from Scotland and New Zealand is absolutely clear: targets work. We want to see challenging but realistic targets, both interim and longer term, which could play an important role in focusing minds and measuring progress.
Recommendation 1 also echoed the call by several organisations for a delivery plan to better co-ordinate the work of different Government departments and set out how the aims of the strategy will be delivered. So, I'm afraid we are disappointed, as a committee, at the Welsh Government's accept-in-principle response, because it does not commit to setting specific targets that the committee and stakeholders feel are needed. It states that work to develop a robust monitoring framework will be taken forward at pace but gives no indication of what that will look like, nor the associated timescales. It does not commit to publishing an action plan and says the strategy instead provides a framework for separate action plans across ministerial portfolios, which detail and measure progress under the relevant programme for government activity. The timescales for agreeing these separate action plans, and whether they will need to be updated in order to link activity directly to the aims of the strategy, remain unclear. We await the new strategy to be published later this month with interest.
The top of the Welsh Government's list of importance in its draft strategy is to reduce costs and maximise the income of families. We agree. This is a really important objective and one that the committee fully supports. And it's worth stressing that the Wales Centre for Public Policy report, commissioned by the Welsh Government, reiterates that measures to increase the incomes of the poorest households are among the most effective in tackling child poverty interventions.
Committee members also heard from the Swansea Poverty Truth Commission of the importance of people being aware of their benefit entitlements, and the need for automated and simplified processes, to help them receive what they are entitled to. This was particularly important for people with literacy issues—so that's some 25 per cent of the adult population—or those who do not have English or Welsh as their first language. Key to the Welsh Government's efforts to maximise the incomes of the poorest is its vision for a Welsh benefits system, and we have followed this work closely in previous scrutiny work that we have done, and warmly welcome the agreement of the final Welsh benefits charter by the partnership council, which is mentioned in the Welsh Government's response to our report. However, agreeing the wording of the benefits charter with all 22 local authorities is no mean feat, and all the other bodies involved in the partnership council. However, it is not the same as working and delivering on the charter's actual vision. We must ensure that a sense of urgency and momentum is maintained, going forward. Steffan Evans from the Bevan Foundation warns that as we enter 2024, such a system has still not been established, and 2024 must be the year that real progress is made in implementing a Welsh benefits system.
For the committee, the cost-of-living crisis makes the need to move from warm words to concrete actions all the more urgent. A key risk to progress is that not all public bodies will advance the benefits charter they have signed up to at the scale and pace that is necessary. If so, will the Welsh Government be prepared to compel any public bodies who may drag their feet? We reiterate our call for the Welsh Government to mandate the implementation of a consistent all-Wales approach to passporting households in receipt of one Welsh benefit to other benefits they are also eligible for.
In summary, it is important to reiterate that children have no control over their circumstances and lack any means of redress. They are literally society’s most vulnerable. The hardship children in poverty face is one that is imposed on them by us. It's a burning injustice that deserves a more vigorous response than the one offered in the draft strategy or in the Welsh Government response to our recommendations. If we are to call time on child poverty, we must face facts that Wales can and must do better than this.

Altaf Hussain AS: Firstly, can I put on record my thanks to Jenny Rathbone for her role in chairing and producing today's committee report, 'Calling time on child poverty: how Wales can do better'? Could I also thank my fellow colleagues on the committee and the clerks and the committee's support team, who have come along and given evidence and supported us as a committee throughout this whole process?
As we know, child poverty in Wales is a long-standing crisis, and we need a coherent and robust child strategy with over one in four children in Wales living in poverty. It was extremely concerning that the Children's Commissioner for Wales strongly criticised the Welsh Government's plans to tackle child poverty in Wales, stating they lacked ambition, clarity and detail. This is also an issue I know my colleague Mark Isherwood has raised numerous times in the Senedd Chamber, and held the Welsh Government to account over.
In responding to today's committee report, I would like to focus on three key issues that we explored and found throughout our committee work. Firstly, a key issue our committee looked into was the importance of nutrition in our food in tackling child poverty, because, regretfully, many children up and down Wales are still feeling hungry after their meals because they simply are not getting the nutrients that are needed. It is clear that there must be more education regarding the positives of nutritious food and how this is included in more young people's diets. More work needs to be done, working with schools and our local authorities, to ensure this occurs.
Secondly, our committee has also seen internationally the importance of having a specific Minister with responsibility for tackling child poverty, seen in Germany, Ireland, Norway and Denmark. Along with this, we received considerable evidence regarding the lack of coherence in the Welsh Government's strategic approach to tackling poverty. Furthermore, we also received evidence regarding child poverty covering a range of briefs in the Welsh Government, with the Minister for Social Justice having responsibility for tackling child poverty, whilst the Deputy Minister for Social Services and the Deputy Minister for Mental Health and Well-being lead on children's issues. That is why I was happy to see recommendation 6 included in our committee report, which calls on the Welsh Government to
'improve coordination across government of its efforts to tackle child poverty by appointing a dedicated Minister for Babies, Children and Young People with responsibility for tackling child poverty.'
Finally, an issue close to my heart is the abhorrent racial abuse we have seen across Bridgend and my patch in South Wales West. Last year, we saw over 40 racial and discriminatory incidents recorded in Bridgend schools, which I'm sure everyone will agree needs to be stamped out. I raised this issue with the Minister back in November and called on the Welsh Government to work with schools in order to tackle racist bullying in our Welsh schools. I hope in producing today's report and the organisations that we have met with will see more work and efforts put into tackling racial abuse, which, of course, also contributes to child poverty numbers.
In closing, Deputy Presiding Officer, I would again like to thank the committee and all those who contributed to what is a really helpful and important report in looking to how we deal with the many challenges around child poverty, and ultimately how we look to reduce and eradicate this. Thank you.

Sioned Williams AS: 'Now, I know that the Welsh Government says its powers are more restricted than those of the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government, but if we think that there is nothing that the Welsh Government or Senedd can do to reduce poverty in Wales, I'd pack up. Of course there are things to do. So, I think one of the key things is delivery: what are the actions in it, how will they be measured, how will we know if they're working? I know it's difficult within the world of politics to admit when things haven't gone well or things haven't worked, but within limited resources you have to know that. If something is not working, scrap it, do something different.'
These are the sage and frank words of one of the experts we heard from during our inquiry, Chris Birt, an associate director in the Joseph Rowntree Foundation who was head of the Scottish First Minister's policy and delivery unit. And he gave us extremely valuable insight into how the Scottish statutory and target-driven overall child poverty approach works, because the whole point of our inquiry was to look at approaches that work, both in terms of policy interventions and in terms of delivery. Because it’s not good enough, Minister, as you do time and time again in your response to our report, to keep pointing to the present UK Government, to keep berating them—rightly—for the actions they are taking to embed inequality, but to keep shrugging and sighing and making empty promises that things will be different when your party gets the keys to Downing Street, especially as every interview I hear with the UK Labour leader and his shadow Ministers contains no commitment to, for instance, removing the two-child cap, or devolving powers over welfare, although you yourselves point to how those levers would empower Wales to tackle child poverty in your response.
Chris Birt told us in no uncertain terms that one of the main barriers to making progress on tackling child poverty is the decisions of politicians.
'Poverty is not caused by the weather; it is a consequence of a number of decisions made by governments'.
Yes, completely. Our committee heard from many experts about solutions that work internationally. Another thing Chris Birt told us about was how targets work, something our Chair, Jenny Rathbone, emphasises in her introduction to our report, and has set out again for us this afternoon. Why have we tried in our report to emphasise this need for a clear strategy with measurable, specific targets? Why did the person responsible for delivery in the Scottish Government tell us that nothing focuses Ministers’ minds like statutory targets? Well, because there is a risk in creating strategies. We can all agree on the problem a strategy is trying to tackle. We can all agree on solutions. What is most important, though, is ownership and delivery, and that’s why we need targets. But perhaps we shouldn’t be surprised. After all, the First Minister himself has shared his opinion on this quite openly. He said, when asked why the Government had not published a child poverty strategy a year ago, that writing strategies is not something that’s going to put food on anyone’s table. Well, that’s only true if the strategy isn’t sufficiently focused, with clear interim and long-term targets to drive change and to ensure delivery. So, it’s disappointing the Government doesn’t accept our recommendation in full on this, and will now spend many more months consulting on a monitoring framework.
In its response, the Government states that tackling child poverty is an 'absolute priority’. Is it? Then why is the Government proposing to cut back the roll-out of baby bundles, a measure that works internationally, supported by evidence we took in our inquiry? Why is the recommendation to ensure seamless and affordable childcare provision through the consequentials it will receive from increased spending in England not being accepted in full, when the witnesses told us that, when parents are asked, ‘What do you need?’, time and time again it’s ‘childcare, childcare, affordable childcare’?
Something I’ve long campaigned on is the need for a seamless Welsh benefits system. The Government’s response has been to work on a charter for local authorities. I welcome that the Government has provided an update on progress in response to our recommendation on this matter, but am concerned, given the non-statutory status of the charter, about how the acute and existential pressures on local authority budgets, given the proposed settlement in the draft budget, will affect achieving an effective, seamless system and actually improving take-up. So, I’d be grateful if the Minister could tell us what consideration has been given to that. And I’d also refer the Minister to the report published by the Bevan Foundation yesterday, which completely backs up the view of the committee on this matter, and draws attention to the fact that current grants and allowances designed to support children in poverty are not fit for purpose. Eligibility needs to be reviewed, with the value of financial support being simply insufficient to meet people’s needs.
So, the question is, for me: is tackling child poverty an absolute priority? Why has this strategy been so long in coming? Will it have teeth, a sharp enough bite to motivate Ministers? Will those Ministers ensure any UK Government in the future gives Wales the powers that those same Ministers say they need to meet our recommendations in full? Because the Government over the last days has talked over and over about taking difficult decisions. I would say, ‘Take them’. Take the bold—

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Sioned, you need to conclude now, please.

Sioned Williams AS: Yes, I will. Take the brave, bold and radical decisions that are difficult politically—take them—if tackling child poverty is no longer to be managed but is to be eradicated.

Jane Dodds AS: I just want to start by explaining a little bit about my personal motivation for coming into politics, which is based on my professional experience as a child protection social worker for about 20 years. I can say quite confidently that I guesstimate that 90 per cent of the cases I worked with were children living in poverty. That's why I came into politics, because I could work every day, every hour, trying to help families and children in their particular situation. But I wanted to change the system. I wanted to make sure that we were responsible and changed the system for those children living in poverty. Like Sioned, I will also pack upand go home if we can't do something about child poverty here in Wales.
This report is meant to be helpful, but it is time to call time on child poverty. We have only made six recommendations in our report because we want it to be achievable and we want to be able to hear really solid responses. But we are disappointed. Whilst four of those recommendations have been accepted totally, two of them have not. And I just want to touch on those two.
Firstly, being poor is something we cannot tolerate in 2024. Having children who are poor is something that we have to change. Twenty-eight per cent of children in Wales are living in poverty. This is not something we should tolerate. So, firstly, let's have targets. Why the hesitancy? Why not be politically courageous and bold and have timelines for how we reduce that 28 per cent of children living in poverty in Wales. Wouldn't it be great if next year, or the year after, we saw a reduction in that 28 per cent? Without targets we can't do that.
The message we received from experts across sectors was clear. The Welsh Government strategy lacks the vision and targets necessary to direct resources and concentrate minds. So, there's no need for further procrastination, under the guise of additional research, when we've already identified those good practice areas from Scotland, Norway and beyond. Let's get targets in. And, as well as targets, the other recommendation that has been rejected outright is for one person to take responsibility for child poverty. You've rejected that, Minister. You've rejected a dedicated Minister for babies, children and young people. The experts—we heard again—their rationale is that tackling poverty and children's rights being an all-of-Government responsibility is totally misguided. Lots of people say that where everyone is responsible, no-one is responsible. Diffusing child poverty across portfolios only seeks to obscure accountability and ensures failure goes unaddressed.
Scotland has a minister for children and young people; New Zealand a Minister for Children and the Prevention of Family and Sexual Violence; Finland has a minister for children, youth and families; Ireland has a minister for children, equality, integration and youth; Australia has a minister for families. And let's look at poverty in some of these countries. The rate of child poverty in Ireland is 15 per cent. The rate of child poverty in New Zealand is 12 per cent. The rate of child poverty in Australia is 16 per cent; in Finland, 13 per cent; in New Zealand, 12 per cent.
The title of this report is 'Calling time', because enough is enough. We cannot simply list initiatives and repackage existing programs but must develop a coherent, co-ordinated, accountable approach. The Welsh Government cannot possibly hope to eradicate child poverty without establishing realistic milestones, tangible targets and having somebody— one person—responsible.
We all recognise, Minister, your commitment to reducing child poverty in Wales. I hope you will respond to our concerns. But it is time—time to think differently, time for targets, time for a Minister to stop children in Wales being poor. So, please set out your reasons for rejecting these recommendations. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Sarah Murphy AS: I want to start by thanking everyone who submitted evidence to us and spoke with us—when we went out to visit projects everybody was incredibly candid and welcoming towards us—as well as our clerks and my fellow Members and Chair. And I want to welcome, as well, Welsh Government accepting almost all of our recommendations, and I do understand being unable to accept 6, which I will come to later. It was a deliberate decision by our committee to have six recommendations. In no way does it show that there's little work to do—quite the opposite. I feel that it highlights that these key recommendations must be completed from the top, from Welsh Government, to have the clear priorities and programme for what we think is working, going forward.

Sarah Murphy AS: For our report, it's interesting to note that we used what is considered to be relative poverty for a child, so that is when the income of the household they live in falls below 60 per cent of the UK median. But, also, there is another category for persistent poverty, and that is where a household is in poverty for three out of four years. After housing costs, a child in Wales had a 17 per cent likelihood of being in persistent poverty between 2017 and 2021.
We have heard the immediate and long-lasting impact that this has on our children and our society from my colleagues today. We've also heard from our Chair that there are other areas of the UK where they have higher numbers of children living in relative poverty—London, the north of England and the midlands. This is in no way to say that it's acceptable, where we are at the moment in Wales, but it does really highlight to me that I cannot fathom why the UK Conservative Government would continue to make life as difficult as possible for children and families, which impacts all of the children across the UK, because the Resolution Foundation expects UK child poverty to be at its highest rate for 30 years in 2027 and 2028, if we don't do something about it—that's particularly for larger families particularly affected by the two-child limit benefit cap and the frozen local housing allowance rates.
Not only that, but it still absolutely baffles me that they are happy that £15 billion-worth of benefits remain unclaimed each year, with £7.5 billion of that being universal credit, almost £1 billion in child benefit and £2.5 billion in child tax credit. Why isn't the UK Government doing all it can to ensure that people claim what they're entitled to, instead of targeting those receiving disability benefit support, as we've seen recently?
When collecting evidence, we also met with the Faith in Families service users in Swansea, and they were telling us about the key skills training that they received, and this really stayed with me, because we heard from a mother who had had support from the centre basically from when her child was a baby, who is now going to university. One of the key skills sessions that she told us made a huge difference to her, which sounds really simple, was cooking. She'd never been taught to just cook something from scratch, and she was there and she was saying so proudly to us that she learnt not only how to cook everything from scratch and that it was healthy and cheap, but now her daughter is going off to university and she has passed those skills on to her. It sounds small, but it is absolutely huge, and I was like, 'Oh, this is great, this is good practice—we can take this back and say that this should continue', and then we were told that this funding has gone, because it was EU funding. The Conservative UK Government promised them that it would continue and it did not, so this was a tangible impact on our communities for a policy that was really working and was taken away.
It has been incredibly frustrating to hear all of these stories. It doesn't take away from—I agree with all of my colleagues here today—what the Welsh Government should be doing, but I just also want to give the other side to this as well, which is that it has been made incredibly difficult for children all across the UK because of the UK Government.
It is crucial that the Welsh Government does use its devolved levers, like setting council tax benefit and the discretionary assistance fund, and that they're fair and accessible. I welcome the work that is being done on the former and the continuation of the latter—it being protected in the latest Welsh Government draft budget. It is also positive that since the start of this Senedd in May 2021, the Welsh Government has committed to free school meals for all primary school children, increased the education maintenance allowance, expanded access to the Flying Start scheme in the most deprived communities, and started to expand free childcare for working parents of two-year-olds. This was, actually, work that was really recognised by the children's commissioner in Wales.
So, I just wanted to come to those last two recommendations that Jane Dodds referred to. The child poverty strategy is due in a few weeks. We have heard that there are concerns over its lack of ambition. I would also call on the Welsh Government to set targets that are possible. I know it's not easy, but, you know, for example, increasing uptake in services that are available and working at the moment. I know it's not necessarily the Welsh Government's role to ensure that people are using those benefits, but getting people to get those unclaimed benefits would make a big difference.
Finally, the recommendation to have a portfolio for babies, children and young people, I really do feel it's crucial. We've had it before, we should have it again. I think it would send a clear message; I think it would also set out how important this is for us, what a priority it is—the outcomes—and to give that reassurance, really, that, along with the targets, this is not something that's going to fall by the wayside. I don't want us to be part of that 2027, 2028 figure for UK children, you know, the lowest in the country; I want Wales to be doing much better than that. Diolch.

Jayne Bryant AC: I'm speaking today in my capacity as Chair of the Children, Young People and Education Committee. I'd really like to thank the Equality and Social Justice Committee, and particularly the Chair, for inviting our committee to participate in this important inquiry. This collaborative approach is vital when looking at the impact of pervasive and all-encompassing issues like child poverty.
As the Chair highlights in her foreword to the report, there are more children and young people living in poverty in our country than any other age group. The impact that poverty has on all aspects of children's and young people's lives is insidious and laid out starkly in the report: child mortality rates are higher; children living in poverty are four times more likely than their peers to develop a mental health problem by the age of 11; they are much less likely to do well at school; and poverty means that children are at greater risk of neglect and more likely to be removed from their parents.
Moving on to the recommendations in the report, I strongly welcome recommendation 2, which calls for the final child poverty strategy to be focused directly on children's rights and to be explicit about actions within it to address child poverty's negative impact on children's rights to education, protection and health, and I welcome the Minister's clear acceptance that this change is needed.
I'll focus the rest of my comments on two particular groups who are more likely to be affected by poverty: care-experienced children and disabled children and young people. Our recent inquiry into care-experienced children heard front-line professionals say that poverty is the most common reason why children are removed from their parents, and that reducing child poverty could have the most impact in reducing the numbers of children in care. Yet, as the NSPCC noted, the draft child poverty strategy does not make any reference to the impact of poverty on the increased risk of child protection involvement. So, I reiterate our committee's calls for the Welsh Government to turn its commitment to radical reform into concrete actions for change.
During our current inquiry, looking at education and childcare access for disabled children, we have heard how a lack of inclusive and accessible childcare and education impacts parents' and carers' ability to work. Even if a family is able to secure inclusive and accessible education or childcare, there's often an expectation that they'll be available at the drop of a hat in a way that's not expected of parents or carers of children without additional needs. This significantly reduces the ability of parents and carers to work, thereby increasing the risk of the family being in poverty. This is then compounded by the fact that they often face higher living expenses for reasons beyond their control.
The ESJ report is very clear on the importance of early years education and childcare to addressing child poverty. Yet, it shows that not one Welsh local authority assessed that there is sufficient provision for disabled children. This is shocking and has been borne out time and time again in the personal testimonies that we have heard from families, and those testimonies are heartbreaking. I therefore welcome the commitment from the ESJ committee to look at childcare provision in the near future and we will be happy to share relevant evidence from our own work, once again.I hope that the Welsh Government will listen to the calls of the ESJ committee and of stakeholders to ensure that the final child poverty strategy emphasises more strongly the importance of early years provision that is accessible to all and that, in turn, supports families to work.
I'd like to close by thanking, once again, the ESJ Chair, committee, staff and all the stakeholders who were involved in this important report. Tackling child poverty is essential to improving all aspects of life in Wales for everybody, and I look forward to the publication of a more robust child poverty strategy. Diolch.

Vikki Howells AC: My thanks to the committee for producing this thought-provoking piece of work. It's so vital that we don't take our eye off the ball in the campaign to eliminate child poverty, and it's really important that we take stock of where we are, monitor progress and see what else needs to be done. In terms of progress, there is evidence to welcome in this report. I was pleased to note that relative child poverty in Wales has declined between 2012 and 2022, in contrast to the UK average. But, of course, it is completely unacceptable that 28 per cent of children living in Wales are in relative income poverty. We know that this poverty impacts children's lives and life chances in far too many ways, as other speakers have already alluded to.
The report suggests a number of actions that we can take to change this, and I must say I was slightly disappointed that some of the remedies suggested are simply out of the scope of our current devolved settlement. However, many others are within this, and I want to focus on two of those recommendations today. Firstly, recommendation 3, the research from Drs Bucelli and McKnight provides an useful evidence base for the interventions that are most successful in tackling poverty, as does the testimony of other witnesses. I agree with the committee's recommendation that prioritisation should be accorded to those interventions that have proven most effective. This is clearly in line with the Welsh Government's approach as set out in their response to the report.
As the Welsh Government says, when Wales is facing such enormous budgetary pressures to a budget worth £1.3 billion less in real terms than in 2021, this prioritisation becomes not so much a virtue as a necessity. The First Minister rightly set out that this would be the basis of the Welsh Government's approach in the Siambr yesterday, when he spoke about the priority being placed on defending those people whose needs are greatest. We can see this in the spending priorities put forward.
For example, there is the implementation of universal free school meals for all primary school pupils, which will be rolled out to the final year groups later this year. This is really important to ensure that primary school age pupils have access to at least one nutritious meal a day, so that they do not go hungry and can concentrate on their schooling. I note elsewhere in the report the comments from Children in Wales that interventions that address hunger and food security would be their top priorities, and I look forward to the findings of the review of the eligibility criteria for secondary school age pupils in due course.
Similarly, the First Minister confirmed that there would be no reduction in the amount of money in the budget for the school holiday enrichment programme. I've been privileged to visit the scheme in Penywaun and find out about the positive impact it is having, not just for eligible children, but for their families and school staff as well. Finally, there was also the welcome commitment that the schools essential grant will remain at this year's heightened level for the next financial year. Coupled with the refreshed guidance around school uniforms, this will be of benefit to children and young people in Cynon Valleyand elsewhere.
Secondly, I want to briefly touch on recommendation 5. We know that high-quality childcare is incredibly important for both children and parents in combating poverty and its effect on early years learning. Delivering on this has been a goal for successive Welsh Governments, and I'm pleased that, as set out in both the programme for government and the co-operation agreement, this is no different for the current administration.
I regularly take the opportunity to visit some of the first-rate childcare facilities in Cynon Valley, most recently visiting the Little Inspirations nursery in Aberaman last month. I'm always impressed by the great work that they do in creating warm, safe and supportive environments for children. That's particularly the case for some of our fantastic Flying Start settings. The Welsh Government's practical approach towards increasing opportunities ensures the childcare offer is rolled out only when there is confidence that there are sufficient providers to match demand. This contrasts with the approach adopted elsewhere in the UK, which lacks capacity and is more about just chasing headlines. However, I also recognise that where finances allow we must ensure work across Government to encourage more people to work in the childcare sector in order to fulfil our ambitions and lift more children and families out of poverty. Diolch.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: I call on the Minister for Social Justice, Jane Hutt.

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch yn fawr, Dirprwy Lywydd. Thank you for the opportunity to respond to this important debate on the Equality and Social Justice Committee's report, 'Calling time on child poverty: how Wales can do better'. I welcome the report and its insightful recommendations. I'd like to thank the Chair, Jenny Rathbone, and the members of the committee for their significant contributions with this inquiry and report. Your findings are valuable and have informed the consultation on our refreshed child poverty strategy. Members will know that the publication of the new child poverty strategy was deferred to take account of the draft budget published on 19 December, and I can confirm today that I’ll be launching the strategy on 23 January.

Jane Hutt AC: The committee’s findings form part of the feedback we’ve received from a wider programme of engagement with a range of stakeholders. The engagement exercise included seeking the views of children and young people, families and communities, and organisations that work with children and young people. In all, more than 3,000 responses were received to inform the strategy.
To clearly demonstrate our progress in achieving our child poverty objectives, to deliver—and that message has come through again in all the important contributions today—on our objectives, we have given a commitment to develop a framework that will demonstrate the progress we’re making to deliver against our objectives for tackling child poverty to be held to account. We are taking forward with key stakeholders what this should look like, and I’ll be saying more about this in the oral statement later this month.
As a starting point, we’re seeking independent advice on national poverty indicators and data availability as part of a framework to monitor and demonstrate that transparent accountability, which is vital, will be provided to report on our progress in tackling poverty. We do believe a framework based on a range of measures will support us to more accurately reflect the impact of our approach to this complex set of problems. It’s vital, however, that any approach to monitoring the progress we’re making must include evidence of the lived experience of poverty. I’ve accepted that important first recommendation in principle. I do believe it is what we do as Government, what our actions are, that we need to be tested against. The programme for government will underpin the actions across the Welsh Government required to achieve our child poverty objectives.
The draft strategy confirms we will continue to take a children’s rights approach to the delivery of our programme for government in line with the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child. We’re tackling poverty and inequality as cross-cutting policy drivers. The final strategy will include clearer and more explicit reference to the individual articles of the UNCRC, and I know that’s a call from the committee and from Members today. We will review also the child rights impact assessments to set out the evidence from children and young people on how this influenced the strategy.
The strategy will also focus our activity on those programmes and interventions that have the greatest impact in reducing child poverty within our devolved powers; that’s an important point as well that’s been made this afternoon—within our devolved powers. As Members are aware, we have a strategic integrated impact assessment that’s been published alongside the draft budget. It outlines the contextual evidence that supports our spending decisions, including those related to children and young people. A key priority within the child poverty strategy is to maximise incomes, and our work to streamline and simplify access to our Welsh benefits system as part of our co-operation agreement with Plaid Cymru is key to this objective. So again, I’m glad that income maximisation—again from your inquiry, and contributions today—has been highlighted.
The partnership council for Wales has agreed the final draft of the charter for delivery of Welsh benefits and the establishment of an external steering group to develop an implementation plan and oversee its delivery. We’ve worked with the Welsh Local Government Association to confirm the membership of the group that will hold its inaugural meeting this month. In that context, I would like to acknowledge the work undertaken by the Bevan Foundation to improve access to Welsh benefits and thank them for—and it’s been mentioned this afternoon as well by Sioned Williams, and, indeed, by the Chair—their recently published report, 'Making the case for a Welsh Benefits System—people’s experiences'. It is a very important message, I think, today, from Members in the Chamber, from this debate, and from the committee’s inquiry—a message to our partners in local government that there is a recognition that all 22 local authorities have endorsed this charter, and then, obviously, delivery and being held to account on that delivery will be important.
Deputy Llywydd, the feedback from our child poverty strategy engagement exercises highlighted that in particular, we need to work more effectively across Government to bring about the change that is required to make this difference to people's lives. The Welsh Ministers have given their agreement to continue to develop policy through an equality and poverty lens. Ministers have agreed to continue to identify gaps and opportunities to reprioritise budgets. This has been such a tough exercise; it's been recognised today again that 1.3 billion cut that has affected our draft budget for next year after 13 years of austerity and cuts. We have looked at ways we can reprioritise, as I said, budgets to deliver those shared outcomes on reducing child poverty and inequality in the long term; and it's a commitment that's seen Ministers working together across portfolios to ensure a focus on tackling child poverty is a key priority. We'll hear much more about this on the education front as well in debates later on today.
The roll-out of our universal primary free school meals is critical in terms of tackling child poverty. I remember that was the first thing that the children's commissioner said to me when I came into this role: 'Roll out free school meals'. Thanks to our co-operation agreement, we are doing that. Of course, Members have raised this as well, and the fact that the SHEP and school essentials grant has been protected as well. What we need to do now is demonstrate our commitment that we are working to tackle child poverty. We can't do this alone. Last year, I held a summit to consider how the Welsh Government, local authorities and public bodies have to work together to tackle poverty. Next week, I'm meeting the child poverty strategy external reference group to discuss the strategy and its implementation, and I think probably many of the members will have given evidence to this committee.
Can I thank the Children, Young People and Education Committee for their work particularly raising the issues, as Jayne Bryant did today, on the needs of disabled children and care-experienced young people as well? We're addressing many of the issues affecting disabled children in our disability rights taskforce, and there's a work stream on children and young people.
Just in final conclusion, Deputy Llywydd and Members, I really welcome and thank the committee for their report. Indeed, I very much note recommendation 6. It is important that we do have—. I am taking the lead, of course, in terms of responsibility to tackle child poverty, but it is important to recognise that every Minister, every member of the Cabinet, has a duty placed upon them to give due regard to the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child—

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Minister, you do need to conclude now, please.

Jane Hutt AC: I'm committed, I want to say, as I said in my response to your report, to tackling child poverty as an absolute priority, as is the Welsh Government, and we will continue to use every lever we have available and take a lead role in wider action to work towards eradicating child poverty in Wales. Diolch yn fawr.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: I call on Jenny Rathbone to replyto the debate.

Jenny Rathbone AC: Thank you very much. I want to thank all Members who contributed to this debate, because I think it highlights that there is a huge amount of interest, passion and commitment to delivering on reducing child poverty.
Altaf Hussain started off by talking about the importance of nutrition—not something I need convincing about. But it's obviously very important to mention that some children are still feeling hungry after a meal because what they're eating is not nutritious. I think he also raised a very important issue around racial abuse in schools, which I'm sure we will be tackling in our more recent inquiry on the 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan'. But clearly, if children are suffering racism on top of poverty, then it is absolutely devastating. Clearly, it is the role of schools to ensure that children aren't being bullied because of circumstances that are way beyond their control.
Sioned quoted at length from Chris Birt, who obviously brought the Scottish perspective to our committee's inquiry. Sioned made the case for devolving welfare responsibilities, and we could do a lot more if we had that. I know that the Welsh Government is absolutely not opposed to that, but clearly that's not something we have at the moment and we have to work with what we've got. Sioned also outlined that poverty is caused by Government decisions, absolutely. This is not God given. It's not because of the weather. Ownership and targets won't put food on the table, the First Minister argued yesterday, but nevertheless, we completely acknowledge that the Welsh Government faces extremely difficult decisions in its current budget decisions. So, although Sioned asked why we aren't rolling out baby bundles, I fear those are some of the decisions that have had to be made, that it can only be targeted at those who are most in need. Sioned also identified the need for childcare. This is one of the greatest barriers to families falling into poverty. If they weren't poor before they had children, people become poor after they have children, because they simply aren't able to command the wages to cover the cost of the childcare. This is something that is very well established. She also spoke about the non-statutory status of the Welsh benefits charter, but that's what we've got at the moment, and that's what we need to work with.

Jenny Rathbone AC: Jane Dodds started from the basis of her experience as a children's social worker, where 90 per cent of the children she was working with were children in poverty. She came into politics to change the system and mentioned the pledge to pack up and go home if we can't do something about child poverty. I'm sure many of us were inspired to try and make a difference, including the Minister for Social Justice. She also outlined why we only made six recommendations. We made six recommendations because we wanted them to be heard and counted. She once again challenged the Welsh Government on its hesitation on setting bold targets. Without targets, she says, we won't see that reduction in the 28 per cent who are in poverty. She also emphasised the importance of having one person responsible for babies, children and young people, because where everyone is responsible, nobody is responsible. She pointed out that, in Scotland, Finland, Norway, Australia, Ireland and New Zealand, all of whom have lower child poverty rates than we do, they all have dedicated Ministers to tackle child poverty. She ended by saying it's time for targets and time for a single Minister.
Sarah Murphy also emphasised why we only had a small number of targets, and reminded us of the warning by the Resolution Foundation that we haven't reached the bottom of the problem yet, as a result of frozen housing allowances.
Vikki Howells, thank you very much for picking up some of the important things said by the First Minister yesterday around protecting the SHEP and protecting universal free school meals. We acknowledge that those are indeed extremely important recommendations, and ones that we need to follow up on.
I think Sarah also spoke about the importance of the woman who learned how to cook using the European funding. That is such an important skill and is one of the reasons why so many children are so poorly nourished. This is really desperate stuff.
Jayne Bryant's contribution reminded us about the impact of mental health problems that are likely to occur if children are living in poverty, and her focus was on children's rights, picking up on the work that the children and young people committee have done on care-experienced children, where children have been removed, and the very, very strong link that there is to poverty, as well as the work and the evidence they’ve gathered around families where a child is disabled. There simply isn't the adequate childcare across Wales.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Jenny, you need to conclude now, please.

Jenny Rathbone AC: I have two concluding remarks, Deputy Presiding Officer.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Be quick, please.

Jenny Rathbone AC: One is the need to focus on where we know the concentrations of poverty are: families with large numbers of children; families with a child or an adult who's disabled; ethnic minority families; and people living in private rented accommodation.
And, lastly, I want to speak about our recommendation for a Minister for babies, children and young people. Our report was drafted before Mark Drakeford announced he was standing down, and I completely understand why he does not want to tie the hands of the incoming First Minister as to how they are going to run their Government. But it is a recommendation, we hope, that the aspiring candidates to be First Minister will take into account, because stakeholders don't know where to address their concerns around child poverty, and everyone responsible means no-one is responsible.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: The proposal is to note the committee's report. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

6. Welsh Conservatives Debate: Programme for International Student Assessment results

The following amendments have been selected: amendment 1 in the name of Lesley Griffiths, and amendment 2 in the name of Heledd Fychan. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be deselected.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Item 6 this afternoon is the Welsh Conservatives debate on the Programme for International Student Assessment results, and I call on Laura Anne Jones to move the motion.

Motion NDM8447 Darren Millar
To propose that the Senedd:
1. Notes the 2022 Programme for International Student Assessment (PISA) results, published on 5 December 2023.
2. Regrets that:
a) Wales's performance has fallen to its lowest level ever in maths, reading and science tests taken by 15-year olds;
b) Wales’s results were the lowest of all UK nations, for the fifth consecutive time; and
c) Wales’s results were lower than the OECD average.
3. Calls on the Welsh Government to:
a) prioritise children’s education by getting 5,000 more teachers back into classrooms;
b) ensure those with additional learning needs are provided with the right support sooner, with no cuts made to additional learning needs in the 2024-25 budget;
c) reintroduce a form of standardised testing across schools and local authorities to help parents and teachers monitor learner progress at key stages and compare performance;
d) develop an enhanced programme for more able and talented learners; and
e) scrap the regional education consortia and invest savings made into school budgets.

Motion moved.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Diolch, Deputy Presiding Officer. I'd firstly like to start by thanking my party for tabling this important debate today, and I would like to move our motion in the name of Darren Millar. The Welsh Conservatives have raised very real concerns numerous times already on the latest PISA results for Wales, but things are so bad, Minister, that this warranted a full debate today. This downward trend in educational outcomes in Wales cannot go on.
As our motion states today, Wales’s PISA performance has fallen to its lowest ever level in maths, reading and science—core subjects that we need to get right and need to be excelling in. Not just to pat ourselves on the back as a nation, but for our children and young people's futures and for Wales’s future. This is what's at risk here. This is what we're not getting right.
Wales's results were the lowest of all UK nations for the sixth consecutive time, with Wales's results lower than the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development average. This is a damning indictment of the Labour's 26 years in power in Wales. Can we keep doing the same thing and expect different results? No. Clearly, there needs to be investment into just getting the basics right here in Wales. Instead, we see cuts from this Labour Government in their education budget, when education should be protected if not invested in more. Education in Wales has been on a one-way, downward trajectory, with no sign of improving. The years of mismanagement are clear to see, whether it be a stark loss of teacher numbers, the budget cuts, school budgets maxed out, or a focus on gender ideology in the classroom instead of education standards.
And how does Labour respond to this failure, to the worst ever PISA scores? By the Minister refusing to apologise. Maybe he will today. And upon hearing the results, once again he refuses to set a target for the next set of PISA results in three years' time, or even the one after. He said his ambition—or lack of—and I quote, was simply that results from teenagers here will improve next time. How? How? What has he done, or the Government actually done, to ensure that Wales can drag itself back to once again achieving results that we can be proud of?
It is not the brilliant, hardworking teachers or school staff's fault, who work tirelessly in our schools, up and down the country, often forced to teach in conditions that they shouldn't have to. It is the central management and lack of money in education in Wales that is letting them down and our learners down—it's this Government's lack of vision of how to bring up those standards. You don't seem to listen to the sector on what is actually needed on the ground in order for them to do their jobs. The lack of action by Welsh Labour since taking the reins in education here 26 years ago has not only resulted in poor educational outcomes, but thousands of teachers leaving the profession in droves over the past decades. That's why 3(a) of our motion calls for the Welsh Government to prioritise children's education by getting 5,000 more teachers back into our classrooms. That is not just a desired thing, but an absolute necessity if this Labour Government are going to stop letting down generations of children in Wales. We are lacking teachers in core subjects across the board, but particularly to teach in the medium of Welsh—almost to crisis point. We don't have enough teaching staff to help teachers cope with the sharp rise in ALN—additional learning needs—and the increasing complexities presenting themselves in mainstream education. This is not just affecting those with ALN either, but every single child in the classroom disrupting and holding back everyone's education, through no-one's fault but the lack of money going to our schools.

Laura Anne Jones AC: This Government are failing to retain teachers. We see a huge loss of teachers within the first five years of them qualifying. With these fundamental failures, I find it remarkable that the Minister feels that he is the best man for the job to be the next First Minister.
The cuts to education and the lack of funding that we have seen from the Labour Government for decades has played a large part in these poor PISA scores we saw last month. There is no excuse when you see the scores from the other parts of the UK. In England we saw them climb up the rankings across the board. There was only one European country ahead of England in the rankings, yet they've had to deal with COVID, just like we have, Minister. Maybe we see England's educational improvements because of the reforms that Michael Gove put in over a decade ago now. It's clear to see that the introduction of free schools and academies has had a powerful impact on education in England.
Let's talk about additional learning needs. In the recent budget, we saw the ALN resource budget slashed by 86 per cent. We recognise that some moneys will hopefully go directly to schools, which I've actively pushed for for two years now, but with Labour councils like Monmouthshire cutting nearly £1 million from education, how, just how, Minister, are we ever going to improve our PISA scores and educational outcomes in Wales, and at the very least catch up with other parts of the UK? This comes after schools, parents, teachers and myself have told the Minister time and time again that ALN is the most pressing issue facing schools at the moment. ALN is the issue of our time in Welsh education, yet we hear radio silence from this Government, and instead the sector has to deal with more crushing cuts. Do we really expect better PISA results next time round if we can't fix or even recognise the current most pressing issues in our schools? I think not, and I expect the Minister thinks that too, hence why he's so reluctant to set a target again that he can be measured against.
That's why in our motion we have called for the Welsh Government to ensure that those with ALN are provided with access to support sooner, have that one-to-one support or one-to-two support that they desperately need in our classrooms, and that no cuts be made to additional learning needs in the 2024-25 budget.
If the Minister is wondering how he could afford to actually fund education properly and avoid the cuts that he's been making, he should take heed of the advice of our motion and scrap the regional education consortia and invest the savings back into school budgets. [Interruption.] Absolutely. He could also look at scrapping the Senedd's expansion, and using that money on people's priorities, like a good education for our children, instead of funding an expansion that no-one wants and no-one has called for besides your nationalist coalition bedfellows.
But it is not just funding that is needed; we also need to reform how we track the progress of learners in Wales so that we're not left shocked by results at the end of their educational journey. It is why our motion calls for the reintroduction of a form of standardised testing, to help parents and teachers monitor learner progress at key stages and compare performance. We cannot just wait for students or learners to finish their GCSEs or wait for PISA results to see if progress is up to scratch. We need to be far more proactive, Minister, in fixing problems before it's too late. I know this might shine a light on Government failures, but improving children's educational outcomes far outweighs a dent to the Government's ego.
Finally, and I know this might well come as a shock to a socialist, ideologically driven Government, but it is time to drop the rigid, ideological policy making. It's time to do what's right for learners, and allow us to harness the talent of the brightest and the best, and not allow them to slip through the cracks. It is time to develop an enhanced programme for our more able and talented learners, to help them thrive in mainstream education settings across Wales. Our motion today sets out the basic groundwork for a brighter future for Welsh education. If we ask schools to do more, let's fund them more. Money has to follow directives, Minister.
If this Minister had a school report card, it would simply read: PISA results, fail—needs to try harder; education budget, fail—demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of what is needed; his brief, fail—needs to go back to basics and get those right first. Our children deserve better. Wales deserves better.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: I have selected the two amendments to the motion. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be be deselected. I call on the Minister for Education and the Welsh Language to formally move amendment 1, tabled in the name of Lesley Griffiths.

Amendment 1—Lesley Griffiths
Delete all after point 1 and replace with:
Notes that the pandemic impacted on PISA scores across the world.
Recognises that Wales saw improvement in literacy and numeracy in PISA 2018, however that progress has declined since the pandemic.
Welcomes:
a) the launch of literacy and numeracy plans to raise standards in these key areas;
b) funding to support learners with Additional Learning Needs has significantly increased over recent years and has been protected in the draft budget;
c) that online Personalised Assessments are used in schools across Wales to support teaching and learning, and data from the assessments will be published annually to track progress; and
d) the establishment of a National Attendance Taskforce to support schools in improving attendance rates.

Amendment 1 moved.

Jeremy Miles AC: Formally.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: I call on Sioned Williams to move amendment 2, tabled in the name of Heledd Fychan.

Amendment 2—Heledd Fychan
Delete point 3 and replace with:
Calls on the Welsh Government to:
a) prioritise the recruitment and retention of teachers and teaching assistants, in light of EWC data that shows that 16% of schoolteachers intend to leave the profession within the next 3 years and around 40% of learning support staff intend to leave in the first 5 years;
b) ensure those with additional learning needs are provided with the right support sooner, including through the medium of Welsh, with no cuts made to additional learning needs in the 2024-25 budget;
c) launch a rapid review to tackle education inequality in Wales, reporting and implementing a set of meaningful recommendations.

Amendment 2 moved.

Sioned Williams AS: Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. As Plaid Cymru has previously noted in responding to the latest PISA results, it's important that we reflect on and consider the implications seriously. The central point to bear in mind is that PISA aims to help Governments improve the education of young people, rather than being some kind of contest for its own sake.
Of course, we agree that COVID has had a huge impact on our education sector, and this cannot be ignored when analysing the broader international picture. The Government's amendment emphasises this, but, again, if the Minister really believes that Wales has been affected worse than any other nation due to COVID, then maybe he should agree that this is all the more reason for us to have a specific inquiry into the impact of COVID on education in Wales, so that we can understand the impact of the decisions made, to ensure that the interventions are the right ones for Wales and to learn important lessons for the future.
In terms of our amendments to the motion itself, we have made sure that they reflect what we believe the priorities should be in tackling the current crisis within our education system—a crisis that needs to be recognised by the Welsh Government as it analyses the results. The first call in our amendment refers to the need for the Welsh Government to give greater priority to the crisis of recruitment and the retention of current staff in the education workforce. With 16 per cent of teachers planning to leave the profession in the next three years, and around 40 per cent of teaching assistants planning to leave in their first five years, the Welsh Government must act now and tackle this crisis seriously. If schools do not have an adequate education workforce to support the needs of our learners, then we are not likely to see any improvement in the quality and fairness of our education system. We cannot ignore the fact that 78 per cent of teachers in Wales who responded to a survey by the NASUWTsaid that they would not recommend teaching as a career to friends or family.
The second call in our amendment likewise reflects the call made by the Conservatives in their original motion. However, Plaid Cymru wants to put more of an emphasis on the needs of learners with additional learning needs who are Welsh speaking, and the lack of bilingual support currently available for them, in accordance with the demands of the Welsh Language Commissioner and the children's commissioner, who came together to call for better provision of ALN services through the medium of Welsh.A request was made to prioritise the establishment of a national review of this field and the provision currently offered through the medium of Welsh, noting that ALN provision in Wales should reflect the needs of a bilingual country, in accordance with the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, which says that children have the right to receive education in their own language. And so the quality of this specialist Welsh language education provision should not be dependent on geographical location. It's unacceptable that parents of children with additional learning needs still have to struggle to get Welsh language provision and resources of the highest quality. So, I'd like to hear from the Minister: does the budget for ALN provision reflect the needs of Welsh speakers who need this support? What action is being taken to answer the calls for improvement?
Finally, as our own debate will outline later on, we believe that another priority is to tackle the inequalities that exist within our education system and that have an undeniable impact on educational attainment, namely the impact of poverty on our children. That's why our final call in our amendment is for the Welsh Government to carry out a much-needed review to tackle the inequalities in our education system at present, and to provide a report that outlines a series of meaningful recommendations and how they will be implemented. We believe that, by doing this, we can begin to properly tackle the inequalities that exist and ensure that there are no barriers facing any of our children in terms of attaining the highest standards of educational performance.
The statistics regarding the performance gap say it all. Learners who are eligible for free school meals are less likely to get the highest grades. Children in poverty are four times more likely to develop a mental health problem by the time that they turn 11, and the impact on absence is catastrophic. Will the national attendance taskforce therefore look at the impact of child poverty and the cost of the school day on learners' attendance? We are still waiting, of course, for the child poverty strategy, and we need to see new actions in it that can be measured through targets, in order to ensure that the performance of our learners is not lower than it should be for years yet to come. Thank you.

Sam Rowlands AS: The latest set of PISA results are a tale of two education systems. As Laura Anne Jones outlined, in a Conservative-run English education system, the maths, reading and science scores are all significantly above the OECD average as the best education scores inthe United Kingdom. In the Labour-run Welsh education system, it's the exact opposite. After a quarter of a century of Cardiff Labour Government, Wales has the worst maths, reading and science scores in the UK, all significantly lower than the OECD average. Indeed, the Welsh PISA results have been the worst in the UK every time they've been measured. I'm not saying this comparison with any sort of glee. I'm actually pretty upset, because my children are in the education system here in Wales, and from my perspective it seems to me that they're going to have worse life chances than my nephews and nieces who are receiving an education in England, and that's just not on.
Now, I'd like to take you on a trip down memory lane, if you don't mind joining me for a moment or two, and we're going to go back to 2007, the wonderful year when Gordon Brown took over as Prime Minister, Leona Lewis is dominating the music charts, and a certain Jane Hutt is education Minister. It's also the first time—[Laughter.] It's also the first time that Wales takes part in PISA, and gets below-average results in reading and mathsand average results in science. And Jane Hutt said she wanted to, and I'll quote, 'learn from the best and most effective practice internationally.' Now, 17 years on, it seems as though somebody has not been doing their homework, because things are worse than ever.
And we've heard from the education Minister, and potential future First Minister, that schools are the best investment in social justice and a healthy economy, and I happen to agree with him on this. But the woeful education outcomes presided over by Labour in Wales have damaged the economy and held back the life chances of our children and young people.
If we look at the Conservative Government in Westminster, England has one of the most equitable education outcomes in Europe. It's better for children from poorer backgrounds and not at a cost to other parts of society. Indeed, the best and worst performers in Wales do worse than their counterparts in England. So, thanks to Labour, it seems that everyone loses out.
Now, what's the reason for this difference? It was alluded to by Laura Anne Jones in her opening statement, and we must give huge credit to the likes of Michael Gove and Nick Gibb, who grabbed the bull by the horns and implemented serious and evidence-led education reforms. They focused on a knowledge-rich approach to teaching, which, unfortunately, we haven't seen in Labour-run Wales, where Ministers are seemingly—[Interruption.] Is that an intervention there, Mike Hedges?

Mike Hedges AC: I don't think I'm allowed to—[Inaudible.]

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: You are allowed to intervene. It's a debate.

Mike Hedges AC: Okay. Thank you. England have—

Sam Rowlands AS: If it's an intervention, I'll take it. [Laughter.]

Mike Hedges AC: Thank you. England have done very well. They've done very well because of the London Challenge and the Manchester Challenge. If you want a criticism of the Welsh Government, we had the Welsh Challenge and they then stopped it. But, certainly, the London and Manchester Challenge are the reasons why those areas have done so much better.

Sam Rowlands AS: Thank you for the intervention, Mike. It's certainly worth learning from. I'm sure the front benches—[Interruption.] I'm sure the front benches will be listening to their backbenches for these new ideas as well.
Now, those Conservative reforms have borne fruit and have led to a situation where England sits eleventh in the world in maths and thirteenth for reading and science. Let me reiterate I'm not saying these things in England because I'm trying to highlight just good stuff over there. I am upset that my children are not able to have that same level of education that counterparts in England can have. And Wales should be at a better standard than what it is. It's a crying shame that we live here in Wales not benefiting from that, with children in Wales being held back by a damaged system. These PISA results should be a source of deep shame for this Labour Government. They talk of social justice but we see the evidence, and, sadly, it couldn't be further from the truth. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Carolyn Thomas AS: I know all Members across this Chamber were disappointed that Wales's PISA performance declined following the pandemic. In 2018, Wales was the only country in the UK to achieve improvements in maths, reading and science. This was thanks to the hard work of our dedicated teaching workforce. My daughter is actually a teacher over in England, and she has a class of 30 young children—infant children—that she has to teach. She is supposed to have one classroom assistant, but it's also—[Interruption.] Sorry?

Mark Isherwood AC: Can I just declare that one of those children is one of my grandchildren? [Laughter.]

Carolyn Thomas AS: That is true, and he's lovely. So, I just want to say, she has one classroom assistant, but very often they are pulled away, so it's not all rosy in England as well.
Unfortunately, scores from across the board show that areas with high deprivation have been the most impacted by the COVID pandemic. This should not be a surprise to us, because we've seen over the last 14 years how these same communities have been hardest hit by relentless cuts in the pursuit of austerity imposed by this UK Tory Government. It would be interesting to know where the Conservative benches suggest the money for the additional 5,000 teachers will be coming from. I calculated it would cost an extra £225 million a year in extra funding to be found, including all the on-costs. And in the context of Westminster-imposed cuts and the inflationary crisis, this is really difficult.
I know that the opposition benches are not naive to the consequences of austerity. As a former councillor, he'll remember the protests from schools and parents when he had to cut the local authority's education budget. Cuts do not come without consequences.
Relentless testing and the marketisation of education have not been pursued in Wales because of the considerable stress it caused for young people who had to sit them, and for the staff and schools who were assessed by them. Judgments were based on how pupils performed in tests rather than on pupils' development. Children are not statistics, and numbers on a page can never truly reflect that individual's progress, nor the hours of work put in by teachers and support staff.
In Wales, we're fortunate to have an enlightened Government who make changes that provide for all pupils, including early years, caring for their physical and mental well-being, sports and life skills as well. We could teach just to PISA standards, but are those the right standards? Why should we just teach to those? We want to establish a schooling system that produces well-rounded young people ready to participate in wider society, and that's what the new curriculum has been designed to deliver.
This motion fails to recognise that the Welsh Government already has the established Seren academy for the most able learners. The fully funded Welsh Government initiative was set up in 2015, and it's dedicated to ensuring Wales's most talented learners are supported to achieve their full academic potential regardless of economic or social background. The motion also does not acknowledge that a full review of the middle tier of education, including regional consortia, has already been undertaken by the Welsh Government as part of its commitment to assess the roles and responsibilities of education partners in Wales. I understand the findings from that review are currently pending.
Again, the motion makes no mention of the fact that Welsh Government has significantly increased funding to support learners with additional learning needs over recent years, and that this funding has been protected in the draft budget.
There are lessons to be learned from the PISA results, but they do not yet reflect the improvements that are being rolled out by the Welsh Government, including the new curriculum. The results are a symptom of the pandemic and cost-of-living crisis, which have hit Wales harder than more affluent areas of the UK. We can only hope that the next UK Government budget recognises how vital it is to support education and all local authority-run public services, on which we all depend. Thank you.

Tom Giffard AS: I'm grateful, as a former educator, to have the opportunity to participate in today's debate. It's important to remember where we are. These are the worst-ever set of results for a Government that has never not been the worst at education in the UK. Below England, below Scotland, below Northern Ireland on every subject, every single time we've been assessed. Indeed, we're below the likes of Slovenia and Hungary on reading, below Turkey and Lithuania on science and behind Latvia and Vietnam on maths. And this stuff isn't the usual political back-and-forth. These things really matter. Poor educational standards today make our economy less competitive tomorrow. An unskilled workforce sets that economy behind in the global race. And the Welsh Labour Government consistently failing over a quarter of a century to get a grip on our education system in Wales means that they are responsible for a lost generation here in Wales.
And the education Minister was quick out of the blocks—and I'm sure he will be again today—telling us that the pandemic was at fault for the latest set of figures. But if he took the time to read the report, he'd find on the first few pages alone that a quote said, and I quote:
'The decline...can only partially be attributed to the COVID-19 pandemic';
scores in reading and science had already been falling prior to the pandemic. They then go on, for example, to refer to 31 countries that at least managed to maintain their performance in mathematics during the pandemic. Those countries and those economies displayed common features: shorter school closures, fewer obstacles to remote learning and continuing teachers' and parental support. But we know in Wales we lost more school days to the pandemic than anywhere else in the United Kingdom and much of the world. And the Welsh Government failed to make timely arrangements to sort the impacts that that would have on education.
But, reading into the report, the most interesting part to me, at least, is what the learners themselves had to say. And PISA's report is quite damning there too. They found that students in Wales reported the highest levels of 'feeling like an outsider at school', 5.4 per cent; Welsh schools witnessed the highest levels of school fights in which someone got hurt, 47.5 per cent; students reported hearing a student threaten to hurt another student in school, 43 per cent; students reported seeing gangs in school, 14.5 per cent; and Wales exhibited the highest levels of grade repetition at at least one primary, lower secondary or upper secondary school, a 3 per cent average. All those figures are the highest in the United Kingdom and play some part, in my view, in explaining why our assessed PISA results are so poor.
It's little wonder that if our pupils and their teachers don't feel as comfortable as they possibly can be in the classroom they don't achieve that potential in that classroom. That's why I am really pleased to see our shadow education Minister, Laura Anne Jones, present a five-point plan to tackle violent behaviour in schools, but it is disappointing not to see the Welsh Government taking that same action on that plan.
So, Dirprwy Lywydd, I think the choice is really clear today. We can back a Welsh Conservative plan that will put more teachers in the classroom, provide more support to ALN learners and develop an enhanced programme for talented students across the country, or we can stick with the same old, same old approach from the Welsh Labour Government who time and time again have us rooted to the bottom of education league tables and cut education budgets time and time again. That's the choice we're facing today and I know which way I'll be voting.

Peter Fox AS: When I first highlighted the continual failings of this and previous Labour Welsh Governments in improving PISA results, I was told it should be chalked down to do things. The first was COVID and the second was that the Government's legislative changes in education had not been implemented long enough to effect change.
Now, I'm afraid I don't think those continued excuses actually cut the mustard any more. Both Labour and Plaid have stood in this Chamber and claimed that the pandemic is one causal factor of the poor PISA results. But the pandemic was global and by simply looking at a graph of the results since 2006 we can see that 2022 was not an off year but represents a recurrent decline. If it was the pandemic to blame, then what accounts for the fact that cycle after cycle until now there have been no statistically significant changes across the board? In fact, in science Wales has continually decreased. Further still, whilst our UK nation counterparts were outlined to have also dipped slightly, this is against a backdrop of continually increasing their rankings since 2006, and Wales is the anomaly here. The OECD director for education and skills even stated that the decline in scores was more likely to be caused by underlying structures in education, rather than the pandemic. We heard from the Minister that the changes he had implemented were not to blame as they simply had not had enough time to work, and this is despite the Minister claiming that their path of driving up standards saw a strong improvement in literacy and numeracy standards prior to the pandemic. Dirprwy Lywydd, it cannot be both; you cannot praise your changes for making improvements on one hand, but on the other claim that your changes have not had enough time to work for PISA.
Further still, as we heard yesterday, the Government's draft budget is incongruent with the promises that the Minister has made after the PISA results. Indeed, the local government settlement—a huge real-terms cut of 3.1 per cent—will not help things. The Minister stated that he wanted to tackle the attainment gap in education, but then we see £100 million cut from the tackling-barriers-to-attainment fund. It was argued that the new curriculum had not had enough time to work, but then the funding for the curriculum was cut by over 50 per cent. We were told how important it was to support schools in a variety of ways, but then the funding for teacher development and support was cut by just under 50 per cent.
As I've said here before, there is no harm in the Government or the Minister admitting that they have got things wrong, as have many previous education Ministers. It's clear that the Government have taken too many left turns, making Wales come full circle into the exact same position it was in almost 20 years ago. But now is the time to think extremely hard about how we can turn 20 years of Labour failure in Wales around. Children need quality learning delivered by a teaching workforce that is invested in to equip it to deliver the top-class education that our Welsh students deserve. Diolch.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: I call on the Minister for Education and the Welsh Language, Jeremy Miles.

Jeremy Miles AC: Thank you, Presiding Officer. As Members will know, the PISA tests were undertaken in 2022, when the impacts of the pandemic were still being felt and COVID was still having a serious impact on education. It's not just Wales that is in this situation; COVID impacted the performance of nations across the globe. Since 2018, average performance in the OECD countries has decreased by 10 points in reading and almost 15 in mathematics. Every nation in the UK has seen a decline in performance, and the OECD states clearly that we need to be even more careful in comparing with England and Scotland, because of what they describe as 'upward bias'. The OECD estimates that their results could be between seven and nine points higher than the real figure.

Jeremy Miles AC: But, Dirprwy Lywydd, I want to be clear: Wales's results are not where I want them to be. In 2018, contrary to the assertion of Tom Giffard and Peter Fox, we had started to see strong improvement in literacy and numeracy standards, thanks to the hard work of our teaching workforce. We were the only country in the UK to improve in all three PISA domains. We can be in no doubt that COVID has had an impact on that improvement. As education Minister, I've raised time and time again my concern regarding the long-term effects of the pandemic, in terms of behaviour, attendance—as we've heard today—and engagement with learning. All of these have been affected, and we are not alone in saying this; Estyn have been reporting these issues over the last two years.
The Conservative motion calls for standardised testing to monitor performance. I recently took the decision to publish our national report on personalised assessments. This highlighted the fragility of literacy and numeracy across all years, particularly since the pandemic, even before we received the PISA results. To be clear, there were no calls for me to do this from the Conservatives or anyone else. I did so in the interests of transparency and improving standards. The Conservatives might also want to know that personalised assessments are already mandatory in schools across Wales. They're there to support teaching and learning, and a national report will be published annually to track progress. Alongside this, over recent months I've published our maths and numeracy plan and updated our reading and oracy toolkit to make clear our commitment to the systematic and consistent teaching of phonics, as set out in 'Our national mission: high standards and aspirations for all'.
This PISA cycle has not assessed learning under the Curriculum for Wales, contrary to Peter Fox's assertion. Our new curriculum, along with changes we are taking forward, makes a real difference, and the report will help us to strengthen support for schools and learners on this reform journey. Throughout this time, I have listened to practitioners, and they share my concerns regarding literacy and numeracy standards since the pandemic. These core skills must be an absolute national priority.
The PISA report shows that the gap between our most and least disadvantaged learners is smaller than in England and the OECD average. But I don't believe that this reflects the lived experience of our learners and schools across Wales, and I remain committed to narrowing this gap, supporting all learners and stretching our more able young people. Across the world, school attendance has not returned to pre-pandemic levels. Missing sustained periods of school affects a child's attainment and can also lead them to feeling more disengaged from their education. We've invested heavily to support schools, such as funding for more family engagement officers, but more support is needed. Our national attendance taskforce, which Sioned Williams referred to, will meet again this month to help us to think creatively across the system to find solutions to issues that require influence and input beyond the education sector.
Both curriculum and additional learning needs reforms are designed to meet the needs of all learners. Since 2020, we've invested over £62 million in revenue and £40 million in capital to support the implementation of the new system. This includes £10 million a year for schools to boost resources to support the role of the ALN co-ordinator and work to embed a whole-school approach to planning for and meeting the needs of ALN learners. Contrary to a number of misleading assertions in the debate so far, the draft budget further protects and continues to prioritise investment in ALN reform and boosts resources to support ALN learners.
It's important to recall, Dirprwy Lywydd, that our long-term education reforms have started now to be felt in schools after years of co-development with the profession. But as the OECD points out, improvements of this sort take time. Systems that do well provide autonomy for school leaders to design a curriculum and an emphasis on self-evaluation, but with clear quality assurance and accountability mechanisms. This is the reform journey that we are on. International evidence is clear that high-quality learning needs to be supported by professional learning and school improvement over time to support schools in a challenging climate for all professionals. This is what we will prioritise and, in our draft budget, I have already signalled my commitment to ensuring that as much funding as possible goes directly to local authorities and schools to drive the improvement in standards.
Dirprwy Lywydd, we know that excellent teachers are the key to good education and we will support our teachers to focus on teaching and their professional learning by continuing our work with unions and other partners to reduce unnecessary workload. Driving up standards in reading, maths and science requires a system response from all education leaders in Wales, and I'm bringing our partners together to take forward a shared and comprehensive response to this challenge, with excellent teaching at the centre of it.
Our education workforce does incredible work in supporting our pupils, but the reality is that over a decade of austerity continues to make their job harder. My focus remains on doing everything I can to protect front-line services, giving our teachers the tools they need to do the best job possible.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: I call on James Evans to reply to the debate.

James Evans AS: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I'd like to thank everybody who has taken part in this really important debate this afternoon. The education of our young people across Wales is a priority for this Welsh Conservative group here, and we'll do all we can to make sure that our young people right across Wales get the education that they deserve and the education that the taxpayers of this country also pay for.
I want to start this by talking about Laura Anne Jones, and Laura highlighted the downward spiral of the educational trends here in Wales. She also spoke of the need for us to get it right here in Wales. I think that's very important when we look at education—we need to make sure we have a system in place that suits all our learners and actually makes sure they get the education that we need.

James Evans AS: Laura also talked, and a number of Members talked, about the lack of funding for our ALN provision across schools. I've sat on the committee since I've been here, and I hear time and time again, along with other Members across this Chamber, that there just simply is not the money going into ALN in our schools in Wales. The Minister and the Government here say there's enough money going into it, but I can tell you that our schools and our teachers will say a completely different story.
Laura Anne Jones also highlighted the need to look at different ways that we manage education here in Wales, along the free schools or academy model, and I think sometimes the Government are a bit stuck in a rut here that they won't look at other models of delivering education just because it's been done differently across the border.
Someone also raised how we are going to pay for these things, but the regional educational consortia, as Laura Anne Jones mentioned, could be looked at as a way of reprioritising the budget to releasesome money to deliver what we want to see. Sioned Williams came in as well on the need to take stock and look at these results and actually make sure we analyse them properly and start delivering for our children across Wales, and also highlighted the inequality that people do have across Wales, and we need to really make sure we don't have inequality in our education system, to make sure that everybody can achieve what they want, and also, on the ALN element as well, making sure that there's ALN provision in the Welsh language, because anybody, no matter what their language is across Wales, should be able to get the support they need and not struggle because they don't speak English here. I think that's something that the Government really, really should look to implement here.
Sam Rowlands opened by taking us on a trip down memory lane. It was nice of him to remind us just how long Jane Hutt has actually been a Minister here in the Welsh Government. I think you are probably the longest serving Minister in the northern hemisphere now. Also, Sam did make the very good point, as well, that his children and other people's children here in Wales are not going to get the same life chances as they will in other parts of the UK. I think that's something that we all should take very, very seriously—that all children in Wales should have the opportunity to achieve as much as anybody else. Sam also recognised the differences between the educational establishments that we have in England that previous Conservative education Ministers delivered to try and improve those educational standards in England, which are the best in the whole of the United Kingdom.
Carolyn Thomas, yes, we had the usual blame-the-UK-Government-for-everything approach and how the UK Government have let everybody down. Sometimes, I think you need to look a bit closer to home. This Labour Welsh Government has been in power here for almost 25 years now, and education has been devolved for that length of time. So, if you don't want to look at educational standards, I think you should look to your own group there to see how they can improve education, not blame another Parliament that is down the M4.
But I will say one thing, you did mention about the Seren programme about achieving for our best learners, and that is one thing I, actually, personally quite like, the Seren programme. But one thing that I am a little bit concerned about with Seren is that in some parts of the country Seren works fantastically well, but in other parts of the country Seren doesn't work that well. So, if we are going to have a programme that delivers for our best learners across Wales, it needs to deliver for everybody, and not be sporadic right the way across the country.
Tom Giffard also raised that we're failing our learners here in Wales with our poor educational standards and that the Welsh Government are going to be responsible for that lost generation of young people who don't have those life chances that people who've come before are going to have, and I think that's something we all need to look at. He also mentioned, as others did, the Minister and the Government blaming COVID for everything. Sioned Williams raised this as well. If the Government here, this Welsh Labour Government, think that COVID had such an impact on children's education across Wales, I do not see why the education Minister can't say, if he is the next First Minister, that we will have that COVID inquiry here in Wales so we can actually look at these things properly and hold this Government to account for the decisions they took during that COVID-19 pandemic.
Peter Fox also talked about implementation of the new curriculum and that being another reason the Government blames for PISA, but, I'm sorry, we've seen educational reforms in other parts of the United Kingdom and education is getting better, so I don't see how the Government can keep using these excuses to get out of their poor performance on education. Also, the decline in science, as well, is something that comes back from a lot of bodies, in that we need to be teaching our young people about science and those core subjects to make sure they all have those life chances in the modern world and exactly those new jobs and skills that are coming forward. And also the cut in local government. Peter and, I know, others in this Chamber have sat in local government, having to make difficult budget decisions, and the budget that the Welsh Government have put forward is going to put serious, serious pressure on our schools and local government. I don’t think the Government fully understand the pressure they’re going to put on our learners.
And then we heard from the Minister himself and he yet again referred back to COVID as an excuse for these poor results, and I’m afraid that excuse is running very, very thin now. We need to start seeing improvements, and if the Minister is successful as First Minister, he seems to put education as one of his key priorities, so let’s see if he can make that improvement, perhaps sat in a new chair a bit up from where he is sat now. But the Minister did also talk about some of the things the Welsh Government are trying to do to improve education, but it’s just not working, because this is from a Government that’s run out of ideas, that's run out of a plan.
The problem now with this Government is they’ve been in power so long that they’re starting to implement reforms to implement reforms they brought in earlier, because they were failing. So, there’s only one way, I believe, in which we can improve the educational outcomes of people here in Wales: it’s ditching Labour, it’s electing a new Government here in Wales, a new Government with bold ideas, ideas of how we can improve the educational outcomes of people in Wales, and a Government that wants to put our children first. The only way I think we can do that is with a Welsh Conservative Government here in Cardiff Bay, and it’s about time they spent more time here and we spent more time over there.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There are objections. I will defer voting under this item until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

7. Plaid Cymru Debate: Child poverty and educational attainment

The following amendments have been selected: amendment 1 in the name of Lesley Griffiths, and amendments 2, 3, 4 and 5 in the name of Darren Millar. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendments 2, 3, 4 and 5 will be deselected.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Item 7 this afternoon is the Plaid Cymru debate on child poverty and educational attainment. I call on Sioned Williams to move the motion.

Motion NDM8445 Heledd Fychan
To propose that the Senedd:
1. Notes that 28 per cent of children in Wales are living in poverty.
2. Notes the correlation between child poverty and the education attainment gap.
3. Notes the latest PISA results and national report which showed that 11 per cent of learners in Wales had missed a meal because of poverty.
4. Calls on the Welsh Government to:
a) extend the provision of free school meals to years 7 to 11 for those households in receipt of Universal Credit, without a cap on earnings; and
b) implement statutory targets in the final Child Poverty Strategy to contribute to closing the attainment gap and improving education outcomes.

Motion moved.

Sioned Williams AS: Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. Report after report has been noted and cited in this place regarding the impact of child poverty and the dire and urgent need to improve how the Government is tackling this, which prevents up to a third of our children from reaching their full potential—how poverty is having a detrimental effect in terms of physical and mental health, and how it causes harmful trauma that has a lifelong impact. And earlier today, we discussed a report by the Equality and Social Justice Committee, which I’m a member of, regarding the Government's draft child poverty strategy; a weak draft, in the eyes of all experts on poverty and children's rights, of a strategy that still hasn’t been published. We heard evidence about the attainment challenge in Scotland, which looks at the difference in the attainment gap due to poverty; the tight focus and the funding that is set aside to ensure that gap is closed. Yesterday, we discussed the Government's draft budget, and it was the Government itself that emphasised how the cuts to services and support will surely have an adverse impact on those who most need help.
The motion before you now draws attention to one of the main impacts of child poverty, which is the link between child poverty and educational attainment, and the aim of our debate is to call for action from the Minister for education to close the attainment gap by taking concrete steps that will alleviate the impact of poverty on learners. The motion notes that the PISA results and survey have underlined what is already known to many of us through the many reports that we receive and read, through our committee scrutiny and inquiries, and through our case work, namely that children and young people suffer as a result of their economic circumstances, and that this leads to a vicious cycle of inequality that impairs their ability to break free from the poverty trap through educational attainment.
Of course, there are many factors that contribute to Wales's disappointing PISA results, and those factors include workforce issues and the impact of COVID, but it is undeniable that one of the main factors is child poverty and the impact that it has on those children's attainment, with more than one in five children saying in the report that they feel their family's financial situation has had an impact on how well they do at school.
That is why the Government's amendment to our motion isn’t just disappointing, but is also unacceptable, to be perfectly honest. The amendment removes point 4 of our motion, which calls for one definite and clear action, namely to ensure that children in our comprehensive schools who are living in poverty, but who are ineligible for free school meals, do not have to try to learn while hungry. The rationale behind this call is one that has been accepted by the Government in terms of primary schools—thanks to the co-operation agreement with Plaid Cymru—and it’s a call that recognises that money is tight and therefore seeks in the first instance to ensure that children who are in poverty do not miss out, namely children who come from households that receive universal credit, but are ineligible. It's a reasonable call that would pay great dividends, and it's a call that responds directly to the unacceptable and unsustainable situation revealed by the PISA report, which is that 11 per cent of children go without food on a regular basis. That's over one in 10. And that figure is surely much higher in reality, given the rate of child poverty in Wales, and also the stigma attached to poverty, which would prevent many of our young people in their teens from admitting the nature and impact of their circumstances. Because of course although there is a welcome for the measures listed in your amendment—.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Would you take—?

Sioned Williams AS: Yes. Can I just finish my sentence?

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Yes, of course.

Sioned Williams AS: While the measures listed in your amendment are welcome, of course, the statement that the Government believes that high-quality teaching and learning is the most important school-based factor in tackling the impact of poverty on attainment is a difficult one to agree with in truth. Janet.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Thank you. I really agree with many of the points you make, but you've probably heard me numerous times here mentioning my absolute frustration and upset about the fact that so many children now are living in temporary accommodation, such as hotels and B&Bs. You mentioned about food and nutrition; how do families, how do children access food if they're living in a hotel room?

Sioned Williams AS: I completely agree, and that's why we need to make sure that we have housing justice and we have measures, of course, in the co-operation agreement to try andaddress that problem.

Sioned Williams AS: To return to the point that I was talking about, the reason that I disagree with the statement by the Government that high-quality teaching and learning is the most important school-based factor in tackling the impact of poverty on attainment is, if a child is hungry at school, it's harder for them to concentrate, harder for them to learn effectively, and research has shown that that child will lose up to the equivalent of an hour's worth of teaching every day. So, if a child is hungry once a week, they will miss the equivalent of weeks of education during their time in comprehensive school. I don't intend to repeat all the research that has been done internationally to prove this, we've heard these arguments many times over recent years, but I do think that we need to look seriously at this motion.
It does require expenditure, yes, but it's reasonable expenditure. According to the report by the expert group on living costs, it would have been possible to implement this since September last year through the prepaid card system with additional funding worth £3.8 million. The report states that this action would have been of significant benefit to low-income households as the expenditure would have led to an average household saving of over £1,200 per year, and that's not to mention the health benefits and the educational benefits. If we have statutory targets in the child poverty strategy when it finally takes effect, we could measure the value of this expenditure and its contribution towards a clear output, closing the attainment gap, the scar that disfigures and threatens the future of too many of our children and the well-being of our nation.
I would also like to specifically mention the school holiday programme, which is mentioned in the Government's amendment. It's an extremely valuable programme, of course, but as Plaid Cymru's spokesperson on education, Heledd Fychan, has raised several times in this Chamber, these programmes do not even reach all the children who are eligible for free school meals; there is a gap of several tens of thousands of children between five and 15 years of age, not to mention every child in poverty.
The link between high levels of food insecurity and school attainment was also highlighted in the Children in Wales annual report for 2023. This report states that feeling hungry seems to significantly affect the ability to concentrate and engage in learning. The practitioners quoted in this report noted that many children were so hungry that their only focus was food and when, or if, they would next eat.
Heledd Fychan has also called for action on the costs of the school day. Although education is supposed to be free, we're aware that families are constantly asked for money towards the cost of trips, transport, school uniforms, equipment and so forth. In addition to this, when children and young people cannot take part in opportunities because of the cost, they miss out and they feel shut out, making it harder for them to learn and engage.
The actions that have been taken by the Government to address this, again, of course, are to be welcomed, but more needs to be done to ensure that all governing bodies, for example, implement a school uniform policy that eliminates inequality rather than creating it. Feeling ashamed of one's school uniform contributes to absenteeism levels—something that is also a factor in terms of the attainment gap.
In its report on Welsh benefits, published yesterday, the Bevan Foundation highlights the fact that the effectiveness of the school essentials grant is a cause for concern in this regard. Some parents who were questioned as part of the research were critical of decisions taken by the schools that undermine the support provided through the grant. For example, Llinos, a single parent who was questioned in the Hope Pantry in Merthyr Tydfil, said: 'I received the school uniform grant, which has been a great help, but the school has recently changed the gym kit and it feels like that help has now gone to waste.'
The same report by the Bevan Foundation also highlights the fact that people on low incomes are not eligible for many of the types of support that are listed in the Government's amendment, that the support is often difficult to access, and that the value of these grants also erodes over time. And I quote:

Sioned Williams AS: 'In some circumstances even people who are in receipt of benefits are not eligible for Welsh grants and allowances as their incomes are too high. The two benefits that demonstrate this best are the Schools Essentials Grant and Free School Meals (in secondary school). A child whose family receives Universal Credit would only be eligible under either scheme if their annual household earnings is less than £7,400 a year. Such an incredibly low threshold sees thousands of families who are living in poverty miss out on assistance each year'.

Sioned Williams AS: The children's commissioner is clear that there is a need to consider continued absence in the context of poverty, saying that tackling child poverty has to be a key driver in reducing absence. It was therefore worrying to hear her tell the Children, Young People and Education Committee recently that she felt that Ministers had been less open to her input on child poverty, and was less confident that she had had a positive influence on that than in other areas. The committee Chair, Jayne Bryant, has highlighted this in a letter to the Equality and Social Justice Committee, which I'm a member of, saying that the Welsh Government has not clearly stated in its response to the commissioner's annual report whether it has accepted or rejected each recommendation, unlike previous years, which makes monitoring difficult and is an opaque way of operating. This is therefore a cause for concern, bearing in mind the clear link between poverty and the educational attainment gap.
I have raised several points in opening the debate on this important issue that are central to our nation's future prosperity. I look forward to hearing the contributions from Members, and I hope that the Minister, when responding, will accept that our motion is constructive, based on solid evidence, practical, and sensible. Thank you.

The Llywydd took the Chair.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: I have selected the five amendments to the motion. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendments 2, 3, 4 and 5 will be deselected. The Minister for education to formally move amendment 1.

Amendment 1—Lesley Griffiths
Delete point 4 and replace with:
Believes high quality teaching and learning is the most important school-based factor in tackling the impact of poverty on attainment.
Welcomes:
a) a sharper focus in Initial Teacher Training on the range of approaches to teaching and learning that are needed to tackle the impact of poverty on learner experiences and outcomes.
b) the protection in the draft budget of the Pupil Development Grant and new guidance to support schools to better target this funding.
c) the work undertaken by the Welsh Government’s Attainment Champions in sharing their experiences of tackling the impacts of poverty on attainment, and the intention to build on this.
d) the role Community Focused Schools can play in supporting parents and families to become engaged in children’s learning, and to develop the home learning environment.
e) programmes such as Schools Essentials and the School Holiday Enrichment Programme that provide invaluable support to reduce the cost of living for families.
Notes that the PISA results found education in Wales to be more equitable than the OECD average and other UK countries, with the attainment gap between more disadvantaged learners and less disadvantaged learners smaller.

Amendment 1moved.

Jeremy Miles AC: Formally.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Formally moved. Laura Anne Jones, now, to move amendments 2, 3, 4 and 5.

Amendment 2—Darren Millar
In point 4, delete sub-point a) and replace with:
promote the provision of free school meals to years 7 to 11 for those households in receipt of Universal Credit;

Amendment 3—Darren Millar
Add as new sub-point at the end of point 4:
tackle the economic underperformance which is driving child poverty in Wales;

Amendment 4—Darren Millar
Add as new sub-point at the end of point 4:
improve the efficiency and effectiveness of grant-funded programmes;

Amendment 5—Darren Millar
Add as new sub-point at the end of point 4:
recognise that for the vast majority of children living in poverty, simple solutions focused on enabling them to get the best of mainstream education is paramount;

Amendments 2, 3, 4 and 5 moved.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Diolch, Llywydd. I would like to move those amendments, tabled in the name of Darren Millar. Today's debate is an important one, and I relish the chance, for the second time today, to shine a light on Welsh Labour's decades-long failures, supported of course by their nationalist bedfellows. Hence, I was a little surprised that they had the audacity to table this debate. One key point of the debate today that should not be overlooked—

Sioned Williams AS: Will you take an intervention?

Laura Anne Jones AC: No. It is the ever-growing—[Interruption.] Oh go on, then.

Sioned Williams AS: You're calling us names and you won't take an intervention.

Laura Anne Jones AC: No, I will. You carry on. I am.

Sioned Williams AS: Oh, great. Would you accept that international research demonstrates that universal free school meals, which have been introduced through co-operation with the Welsh Government in primary schools, is one of the key ways to reduce child poverty, or do you dispute all that international evidence that supports that?

Laura Anne Jones AC: I find it interesting that you don't want to carry that on over school holidays then.

Sioned Williams AS: We do, actually. Plaid Cymru do.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Plaid Cymru do, but you've been let down by your bedfellows, haven't you, on that one. It's interesting to see what sort of coalition you actually have, isn't it?

Lee Waters AC: We're not in coalition.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Says the Deputy Minister. One key point in this debate that should not be overlooked is the ever-growing educational attainment gap in Wales. The Joseph Rowntree Foundation—[Interruption.]

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Allow the Member to carry on. You're all sitting down and commenting—let's listen to the Member, please. Laura Anne Jones.

Laura Anne Jones AC: You're lucky it's not a coalition. One key point of the debate today that should not be overlooked is the ever-growing educational attainment gap here in Wales. The Joseph Rowntree Foundation confirmed in its 2013 report that the educational performance of children from poorer backgrounds, when compared with their peers from more prosperous backgrounds, provided clear evidence of the effect of poverty on achievement. And research from the Education Policy Institute into the impact of educational inequalities across England and Wales, published two years ago, revealed that Welsh schools suffer a wider disadvantage gap than English schools. We see that figures on impact of educational inequality for 2019—this is measured by how many months learners are behind where they should be, educationally—revealed that Wales’s disadvantage gap stands at 22 to 23 months, with England’s narrower, at 18 months. These numbers are even more startling when we consider that figures eight years previously in 2011 for Wales were 24 months, showing the extremely slow rate of improvement.
Moreover, the part of England with the worst disadvantage gap, Blackpool at 25 months, still outperforms Wrexham, Merthyr Tydfil, Blaenau Gwent, Rhondda Cynon Taf, Torfaen, Pembrokeshire and Neath Port Talbot, highlighting the sheer scale of the difference. Persistently disadvantaged pupils experience substantial disadvantage gaps, with those in Wales suffering a persistent disadvantage gap of 29 months, whereas in England it stands at 23 months. Not only is this gap not showing any signs of decreasing, but it is expected that the total number of pupils in this category is set to increase. It is clear that Welsh Labour and Jeremy Miles, for all his hot air in his recent LabourList piece, don't actually have a clue or a clear plan on how to properly close this gap. Educational attainment should be a core priority for anyone in Government, yet it's become a forgotten metric by this Government. When you couple this with budget cuts that we have seen for education over the past couple of years, it really does make for bleak reading.
However, it's not just the attainment gap where Welsh Labour are failing the next generation. When it comes to the latest PISA results, Wales ranks the worst in the UK for the sixth consecutive time.

Lee Waters AC: You've done that speech.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Yes, and it's worth saying again, Deputy Minister. Would you like to take an intervention on PISA results? Maybe you should be quiet, then, and just listen.
The Minister has blamed COVID for this outcome, yet other parts of the UK weren't as bad, and they had the pandemic to deal with. This is an excuse, a poor one, given that the problems in Wales predated the pandemic. But as the Minister has now been four years in role, it would mean that he would otherwise have to accept that this continuation of failure happened on his watch, which, of course, would not reflect well in his current efforts to become First Minister. It is also perhaps why, upon hearing the results, once again the Minister refused to set the target for the next set of PISA tests in three years' time, or the one after. He said his ambition, and I quote, was simply that 'results from teenagers would improve next time'. And it's worth saying again that the Minister refuses to be held accountable for his failures, and simply does not want to face scrutiny on years of failure.
Finally, I'd like to touch on free school meals. Labour have underfunded schools to drive forward their universal free school meals, after grossly misjudging the cost associated with implementation, a blame that must also lie with you, Plaid Cymru. Schools weren't all prepared enough to accommodate larger kitchens or to be able to feed more children on the scales required. Councils and schools have had to shoulder that excess cost of the policy, and yet the Welsh Government have seen it fit to cut the education budget. We have seen Plaid prop up this Government for the past three years, and what do they have to show for it? The Welsh Government have failed to provide universal free school meals across the school holidays. Is that what you envisaged? Whereas the UK Conservative Government have continued their holiday activities and food programme for England, providing support for the most vulnerable children on free school meals.
Once again, we have seen the headline-grabbing words from this Government, but poor delivery of your coalition's flagship policy. It makes me question why on earth Plaid Cymru have been propping up this Government for three years. To see your policy ideas failing must make you realise that you are that weaker partner. It's not really paying off, is it? But you really are both much of a muchness. It just proves the old adage that if you vote Plaid, you get Labour, and if you vote Labour, you get Plaid. You are both to blame for all that you complain about today. Not much to be proud of, is it?

Mike Hedges AC: You tried to put Plaid Cymru in power in—

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Sorry, the Member has finished, so sit down, Mike. Try again later. Cefin Campbell.

Cefin Campbell AS: Thank you, Llywydd. I feelthat we tend to think of poverty as an urban problem, but the evidence shows that children in rural areas are just as likely to suffer from the impacts of povertyas their counterparts in towns and cities. For example, according to data from the Bevan Foundation and the End Child Poverty Network Wales, Ceredigion, at around 30 per cent, has the second-highest rate of child poverty of any local authority in Wales. Child poverty rates in rural Wales have been exacerbated by the current cost-of-living crisis, which has been felt more acutely by rural households. These households have been hit by what the Bevan Foundation has called the 'triple squeeze', namely high costs, low incomes and inadequate state support.
Fuel, transport and food poverty are all particularly acute in rural areas. The Centre for Progressive Policy has found that rural and remote places, including small town and village communities in Wales, have been more vulnerable to high inflation due to high levels of fuel poverty, together with other local factors such as higher food prices and lower wage rates.

Cefin Campbell AS: According to the CPP data, Gwynedd, Ynys Môn, Ceredigion, Powys and Pembrokeshire, all predominantly rural, are the top five local authorities in Wales in terms of fuel poverty rates. In both Gwynedd and Ceredigion, more than 20 per cent of households are in fuel poverty. It is no coincidence, therefore, that these are the local authorities with the highest number of off-grid households, who have been poorly served in terms of access to state support with rising fuel costs. The majority of these areas also have rates of low pay, higher than the Welsh average of 12.3 per cent. Seventeen per cent of all local jobs in Ynys Môn, Powys and Pembrokeshire are classed by the CPP as low paid. The net result is that across rural Wales, thousands of children are growing up in households with high expenditure and low incomes, many of them increasingly forced to choose between heating and eating.
Child poverty is an impact that can last a lifetime, as we've already heard from Sioned. It has lasting consequences for physical and mental health, for confidence and self-esteem, and, of course, educational attainment. It can also impact subsequent career paths. In rural Wales, these effects are compounded by a lack of opportunities for young people in terms of access to work, training and further education, which are reflected in patterns of youth outmigration, which has been the scourge of rural communities for decades. According to a 2022 survey by Aberystwyth University, only 22 per cent of young people in rural Wales believe that employment opportunities in their local area are good, and 81 per cent think they will need to move away for education, training or work. Sixty-one per cent of young people are concerned about being able to find a suitable job, and 59 per cent are concerned about being able to afford to buy a house in their local area.

Cefin Campbell AS: These are very concerning findings about life among young people in rural areas, so tackling child poverty in rural Wales will require a specific targeted and strategic approach. More than anything, we have to recognise it as a specific policy challenge that goes hand in hand with new efforts to promote economic prosperity and opportunities for young people in our rural communities.

Jane Dodds AS: It's really important that we remember that not so long ago—about an hour ago, in fact—we were focusing on child poverty; it's a bit like groundhog day. But I do commend the focus of this debate on poverty and closing the attainment gap in education. Whilst we looked at child poverty, we are now looking at the devastating effect poverty has on being able to learn. Twenty-eight per cent of our children in Wales are living in poverty, and you have the cycle of poor children who then go to school, they're not able to learn, they're not able to then get good jobs, and they remain poor, and that means that their children are also poor. So, the cycle continues, and tackling the attainment gap is important in education, and is one of the issues to ending this perpetuating circle of poverty.
But I am going to repeat some of the things I said an hour ago. Wales has no clear targets to reduce child poverty. It has not changed over decades. We do know the good practice globally that can help to tackle child poverty, and Wales has some of the levers to be able to do this. But I do want to focus briefly on what we can do for schools to help in the battle for better outcomes for children and ensuring that we tackle child poverty.
The pupil development grant, pioneered by the Welsh Liberal Democrats more than a decade ago, remains one of the most direct and effective ways to target support to disadvantaged students. The flexibility of the pupil development grant has empowered school leaders to allocate funding based on knowledge of local needs. It has been used to support literacy, numeracy, attendance, specialised services, parental engagement, and addressing a lack of qualified staff. Extensive academic research now demonstrates the positive effects of strategic school spend on reducing educational inequalities and closing that attainment gap. A report in 2022 from the Education Policy Institute specifically highlights the importance that targeted initiatives can make, like the pupil development grant. But I did note that extra funding for disadvantaged schools in Wales trails England's, and more could be done for students facing persistent deprivation.
In September 2023, a Welsh Government review into the pupil development grant came to a similar conclusion, recommending that there was a need to expand funding for the pupil development grant, so that schools could address the increasing challenges that they face to narrow that gap. We all know the fiscal constraints on the Welsh Government, but they do underscore the need for efficient, equitable use of existing funding to maximum effect. That is why I would like to advocate expanding the pupil development grant allocation policy, so that when a child becomes eligible for free school meals they remain eligible for the grant for the next six years of schooling. By expanding the eligibility of the pupil development grant, we will be ensuring that more children get the help they need to access opportunities and to achieve their best at school. We will also be able to tackle the school funding crisis head on by providing direct cash to schools to meet their priorities and the needs of children.
So, to repeat, let's have targets for child poverty. There is no cost to that. But we do need more funding coming from Westminster to expand the eligibility of the pupil development grant so that we can target our support to those children most in need for longer. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Delyth Jewell AC: The child poverty statistics for the Valleys communities I represent are a stain on our conscience collectively. In Merthyr Tydfil, Caerphilly and Blaenau Gwent, a third or more of children are living with the daily torments of poverty, a poverty that limits chances and blights futures. And at no time of year than now is the cruelty of that child poverty more apparent in our schools. January can be a cruel month on the schoolyard, because across the country, some children will go back to school with new bags, wearing new coats, new trainers, sharing stories about the presents they opened over Christmas, but on every schoolyard, there will be some children who stay silent, who are too embarrassed to admit that they didn't get a new watch or PlayStation or vouchers—that Father Christmas forgot to come to their house. They may even pretend they got presents so as not to lose face, not to open themselves up to awkward silences from friends.
Poverty for children isn't just about food, or children not being fed; it can also starve children of a closeness they should feel with their classmates. It can set them apart, build up barriers and shame, which isolates those children from their peers, as though it was somehow their fault. Poverty cuts into people's Christmases and it dents their hopesfor the new year, at that time when buying things seems so central, when people are making plans and setting goals. It highlights just how big a gap exists between children whose parents have been lucky and those who haven't, and it is in large part down to luck. It's not, as one Tory MP disgracefully claimed, down to 'crap' parenting. Crap parenting—tell that to the mothers and fathers who spend the school holiday feeling constantly hungry, having a piece of toast for dinner or an apple so that there's more food for their child. Tell that to the parents who are working three jobs on zero-hours contracts, trying desperately to keep their family together, or those parents who are crippled by worry about how their children will survive the next month, about how they'll explain to their child that they can't go on the school trip, why they can't afford the kit for them to join the rugby team, why they are always the one left out or left behind.
Even getting to school can be a barrier. For those families who can't afford a car, who don't have the luxury of school buses—those families have to pay some of their scant money towards bus fares or train tickets. Now, I'm aware that the Children in Wales's annual report lists the costs and accessibility of transport amongst the five most pressing issues associated with poverty, and that report notes the concern, the fact, that more and more families are having to cut back on the days their children can go to school because they can't afford to get them there. The children's commissioner has expressed worry about this, as I know has the Senedd's Children, Young People and Education Committee, and we know that people living in Valleys communities are proportionally less likely to have access to a car. We know that people living in more rural or isolated areas will have fewer means of getting around without a car. People's geography is a limiting factor when it comes to poverty.
With all of this, it's clear, isn't it, that poverty is draining on children and on their parents. It eats away at children's self-esteem, their ability to cope, their capacity for happiness, and that poverty that is inflicted on people is not down to their failings or their parents', it is the product of the callous policies of an uncaring Government. How foolish, how careless it was for that Tory MP to talk about 'crap' parenting, when those parents are the ones who so often are tested to the limit, making sacrifices every day so that their children can stay alive.
There is no adequate excuse for child poverty. It is a marker of a society that is failing the very citizens who rely most on others' support, and it's a testament of shame on us all.

Mark Isherwood AC: Times Education Supplement research, several Senedd terms ago, showed that the best-performing schools in the most deprived areas of England massively outperformed the best-performing schools in the most deprived areas in Wales. It is therefore a sad indictment of Labour Welsh Government that little has changed in the intervening years, where, for example, research from the Education Policy Institute into the impact of educational inequalities across England and Wales, funded by the Nuffield Foundation and published two years ago, revealed that Welsh schools suffer a wider disadvantage gap than English schools. This widening attainment gap threatens to leave learners from less well-off backgrounds even further behind. 
This motion notes that 28 per cent of children in Wales are living in poverty, which is higher than Scotland, Northern Ireland and several English regions. But, of course, this is a long-standing issue. As stated in the Joseph Rowntree Foundation's 'Monitoring poverty and social exclusion in Wales' report in 2009:
'even before the recession, the problem of low income was already rising sharply, to the extent that half of the previous improvement in child poverty had already been lost.'
In other words, this was before the credit crunch in 2008 when it reached the highest level in the UK at 32 per cent.
Our proposed amendment calling on the Welsh Government to
'promote the provision of free school meals to years 7 to 11 for those households in receipt of Universal Credit'
recognises the need to ensure that the majority of people in receipt of universal credit who are already eligible for this know that they are eligible. This will be best addressed within a streamlined Welsh benefits system, where yesterday’s Bevan Foundation report making the case for a Welsh benefits system again highlighted the lack of awareness, extensive barriers to access and the overall confusion around benefits, and the need to see devolved benefits, including free school meals, pulled together into one coherent system that is accessible to all people living in poverty.
Both the UK Conservative Government and the UK Labour opposition support a devolution revolution to raise economic prosperity across the English regions. However, although the same argument was used in favour of devolution to Wales in the 1990s, 25 years of Labour Welsh Government has failed to deliver this here. Despite receiving billions in temporary funding, intended to close the prosperity gap both within Wales and between Wales and the rest of the UK, Wales today has the lowest gross domestic product output per head, lowest pay packets and lowest gross disposable income amongst the UK nations, with employment below and both unemployment and economic activity above the UK level. Hence our proposed amendments calling on the Welsh Government to tackle the economic underperformance that is driving child poverty in Wales.
The recommendations in the November 2022 Auditor General for Wales report ' "Time for Change"—Poverty in Wales’ included, quote, to
'Improve the efficiency and effectiveness of grant-funded programmes',
and our amendment 4 calls on the Welsh Government to do this accordingly. As that report noted:
'All councils are dependent on grants but the short-term nature of grant programmes, overly complex administration, weaknesses in guidance and grant restrictions, and difficulties spending monies mean that funding is not making the impact it could.'
Of course, this also impacts on the third sector bodies delivering vital early prevention and intervention services on the ground, without which the cost to public services would be very much higher.
Amongst his recommendations, the auditor general called on the Welsh Government to provide longer timescales for announcing and receiving bids to enable better resourced planning; to move away from annual bidding cycles to multi-year allocations; to enable funding to be more flexibly spent and to avoid an emphasis on quicker projects; and to streamline and simplify processes and grant conditions to reduce the administrative burden. That report’s recommendations also include local strategies, targets and performance reporting for tackling and alleviating poverty, where performance reporting and performance management strategies, policies and legislation are otherwise meaningless hot air.
Our amendment 5 calls on the Welsh Government to recognise that,
'for the vast majority of children living in poverty, simple solutions focused on enabling them to get the best of mainstream education is paramount'.
This quote is taken directly from the Royal College of General Practitioners Cymru’s response to the Welsh Government’s draft child poverty strategy 2023, which also called for an approach that appropriately stretches children according to their own talents and stated, and I will conclude with this:
'Those from poorer socio-economic backgrounds are often judged by academic professionals to produce inferior quality work.... Welsh Government must factor this stigma into the strategy and end the belief that background directly affects aptitude.'
Diolch.

Mike Hedges AC: I always find it very difficult to talk in these debates. I always feel I'm being unfair to my parents. They didn't want to be poor. That wasn't their ambition in life, to be poor. It was what life gave them, and a lot of my constituents are in exactly the same place. So, I always feel that I'm being unfair to them, but I will do this anyway.
It's very strange, taking part in a debate on child poverty and education in a room mainly made up of middle-class people brought up in a middle-class background. As someone who lived on a council estate—if all the people who lived on a council estate put their hands up we probably wouldn't have enough for a five-a-side football team—I know the problems of being poor in the education system. There are problems with being less advantaged. It is more difficult today than it was when I was in school. I had access to all the books that anybody in my class had. I had access to the libraries: the Swansea central library, and I had access to the local library, which was a mile and a half's walk away—I'm not sure I would describe that as local, but that was somewhere I could go—and the central library was a three-mile walk away, so neither of them were particularly difficult to get to. But it is much more difficult today. Today children need access to the internet. Everything is about looking things up. We've even got new words for it now—'Google it'. If you cannot afford food and heating, paying for broadband is an unaffordable luxury. Even if you can borrow a school computer—and lots of schools do let their pupils borrow computers in order to help them—if you have no access to the internet, it becomes useless in terms of what you can do with it. In Swansea now, libraries limit the amount of time you can use a computer, even for children, to one hour. Imagine having to do all your homework in one hour.
With only one room warm enough to live in, studying is not easy, especially with a television set on in the corner. This is what life is like for many of the people that we represent. I was very fortunate, I came from a family who really believed in education and that it would help provide a better life and that it was a route out of being poor. And it was. It worked for me. There are certain disadvantages, and we keep on saying that if you come from a poor background, you do get left behind and you do have problems when everybody else has got the same life experience, which is entirely different to yours.
But we need to ensure that everyone succeeds in education. We keep on talking about PISA; it's not a standard I acknowledge. If you want to do well in PISA, it's really easy: choose a school, choose the pupils, train them, and then you do get very good PISA results. Laura Anne Jones keeps on talking about PISA; why don't you do the PISA test? It's available online. Show us how easy it is that you can do it. Because people keep on saying how difficult it is. I'm sure that the Presiding Officer or the Senedd Commission will find a room for you so that you can do it under test conditions, so that you can show just how easy it is to do. GCSEs, A-levels and degrees are much more meaningful in assessing educational attainment and much more useful when you're applying for jobs. Maybe I missed something here, but I've never seen anybody on any application form ask, 'What level PISA did you get?' It's all about GCSEs, A-levels, degrees, higher degrees—every level of educational attainment.
On money, it all comes down to priorities. I mean, people have got bored with me saying this, but we have almost £300 million in basic farm payments—that is the Brexit dividend, we don't have to spend it. Education could have it, local government could have it. I'm not sure that either Plaid Cymru or the Conservatives would agree with that; they think putting money in the pockets of farmers is more important than feeding poor children—

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Are you inviting an intervention?

Mike Hedges AC: Please, yes.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: I don't think anybody should be ashamed of providing subsidies for food production in this country. You think nothing about asking for £1 billion to subsidise Tata, which I support, so why are you differentiating between one industry and another?

Mike Hedges AC: Because we don't subsidise a whole range of industries, and what I'm saying is that there is no reason to subsidise agriculture, and I hope we have a debate on this at some stage, because I'm absolutely—[Interruption.] I would if I could, because I really do have the feeling that we need to discuss this. And can I just say to the Conservatives that it was only in 2016 that you tried to put Plaid Cymru into power? Now you've changed your minds.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: As we are discussing child poverty and educational attainment, the only contribution I want to make is to refer briefly to housing and the situation that people find themselves in. You will have heard me discussing the right to appropriate housing many times. We know that the quality of housing leads directly to children's academic failure. If we look at the fact that children have to live—. Looking at our communities, children live in overcrowded houses, they're living with their grandparents for generations longer than they should, and people are living in damp houses. And as a result of that, because of the poverty that people find themselves in, and these children finding themselves in poor-quality housing, through no fault of their own—it's not their choice in any way whatsoever—they don't have those opportunities to learn in rooms that are appropriate for them, they can't do their homework because houses are overly full, it's too noisy and it's damp, and as a result of that they can't reach the necessary levels in terms of their education.
So, if we are serious about tackling problems around children's education and poverty, we must resolve the housing issue. That means that we here in Wales do have to develop a programme of building quality housing so that children can be brought up and live in places where they have that atmosphere in which to learn and can learn to their best of their ability. Because, at the moment, that's not the case, so I look forward to hearing the Minister telling us what he thinks is the relationship between housing and education, and are we going to see collaboration across the Senedd, with the Government looking at housing as part of the provision for the education successes of children. Thank you very much.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: The Minister for education now to contribute to the debate. Jeremy Miles.

Jeremy Miles AC: Thank you, Llywydd. Tackling poverty is a fundamental principle for this Government, and it's central to the programme for government. The Minister for Social Justice has spoken today about our child poverty strategy and I've discussed PISA, but it's important to start by noting once again our commitment to our children and young people and our ambition for them.
In March of this year, I published 'Our national mission: high standards and aspirations for all', which commits to tackle the impacts of poverty on attainment and ambition. Now, all learners, whatever his or her background, will be supported to be healthy, to take an interest in their education and to get positive learning experiences. To support that aim, we have a range of programmes and policies that provide practical support to children and families.

Jeremy Miles AC: Within our draft budget, Llywydd, we've protected the funding for the pupil development grant, which Jane Dodds spoke so eloquently about, and, if it's agreed by the Senedd, this will provide £128 million in funding to support our most disadvantaged learners. This sits alongside our school essentials grant, which provided over £13 million in support this year, enabling children to access extra-curricular activities and experiences they might otherwise miss, now extended so that it's available to children in each school year. We've also invested in support with the cost of the school day, issuing guidance on the affordability of school uniforms, as Sioned Williams acknowledged, and delivering the national music service and our book gifting offer. This all reinforces our broader commitment to ensuring that socioeconomic disadvantage should not hold you back in the pursuit of your potential.
Llywydd, we are reminded in this debate of the appalling fact that too many children go to school hungry. This is why we committed to increase the availability of free school meals. As part of our co-operation agreement, we are rolling out universal free school meals to primary school children. To date, more than 15 million additional free meals have been served across Wales, with around 145,000 more pupils eligible since the beginning of this academic year.
Turning to the point made by Sioned Williams, initial estimates suggest that the cost of providing free school meals to all secondary school pupils in receipt of universal credit would actually be in the region of £28 million a year. This is before any capital or administration costs and does not account for the costs of expansion to further education institutions.
Llywydd, the reality of the financial position before us is that our budget is worth less than it was, and we have had to make challenging decisions in setting our draft budget. We do, however, understand how difficult this is for families. We've written, amongst other initiatives, to local authorities regarding the discretions available to them to provide meals without charging and of the expectation that no child should be denied an offer of a meal if they arrive at school hungry.
One of the biggest influences on the success of learners is the quality of the learning and teaching they experience, and, as has been described in the debate today, particularly for our younger learners, the environment that they experience at home and community level. I want to pay tribute to the education workforce, who are working so hard to support children and young people from a range of backgrounds, providing them with positive, engaging learning experiences in often very challenging contexts, and helping them grow, thrive and improve their well-being and resilience.
It's essential that we continuously improve the quality of learning and teaching; we know this has a profound influence on progression. Our professional learning offer will support the work of the profession in tackling the impact of poverty on attainment. All programmes of initial teacher education are now required to ensure that students are trained in strategies to tackle the impact of poverty on educational attainment. In January of this year, Llywydd, I appointed seven attainment champions as part of a pilot where those champions work with seven partner schools to develop strategies and practices to tackle the impacts of poverty on attainment. We've now received a review of the pilot, which demonstrates its success, and I'm now looking at how we can build on this work.
We are also driving forward our community-focused schools programme. This acknowledges the crucial role that parents and families play in the learning and development of their children. They build relationships with parents and families, helping them to become even more engaged in children's learning, supporting them to develop the home-learning environment and to become involved in school life and decision making.
Our recently published consultation, 'Exploring Reform of the School Year', is also a key part of this, ensuring that school time can be best used to support all our learners, but we know it will be particularly beneficial to those living in poverty.
Llywydd, in closing, my assessment is that we have made progress, but there remains more to be done. Every child's capacity to aspire is equal, and it is my absolute conviction that means and background should never be a bar to study and never be a bar to success.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Sioned Williams to reply to the debate.

Sioned Williams AS: Thank you, Llywydd. I’d like to thank everybody who’s contributed to this debate this afternoon. Breaking the link between poverty and educational attainment is something that needs to be prioritised better if we want to see an increase in educational performance, if we want to create fairness for all children, if we want to allow our young citizens to reach their full potential. It’s as simple as that. Because, if poverty continues, if children have to think more about that feeling of emptiness, or weakness or boredom that comes from a lack of nutrition, which prevents them from concentrating, from focusing, from understanding, from absorbing the essential information that they need to succeed, then you can do as much as you want with the curriculum, with educational support measures—that attainment gap will never close sufficiently.
So much more needs to be done to eradicate poverty, as the Minister has acknowledged—yes, certainly—but it is the Government’s responsibility to take all possible steps to support our children’s education, and, without targets, the experts agree that the child poverty strategy, for example, is unlikely to meet its goals.
We heard a number of contributions. I’m pleased that Laura Anne Jones from the Conservatives does acknowledge inequalities and poverty and the impact of that on the attainment gap. I find it impossible to understand why she can be against one of the measures that has been proven to reduce those inequalities, namely ensuring that children are not hungry. Cefin mentioned the specific situation of children in rural Wales in terms of poverty levels and the need for a specific strategy to tackle that. I’d like to thank Jane Dodds for mentioning the need to tackle that attainment gap in order to break that vicious cycle of poverty among children, and I agree that expanding eligibility for the pupil deprivation grant would be a positive step. Delyth mentioned the psychological impact of poverty on children and families and emphasised the cost of transport to school and the impact on attendance and attainment. And then Mabon emphasised the link with ensuring appropriate housing in terms of closing that attainment gap. Mark Isherwood supported, I’m pleased to hear, the need for a Welsh benefits system that is smoother and more effective, but we have to remind all those on those benches that filling gaps in the social security safety net in the wake of the cruelty of measures such as the two-child cap is what a number of these Welsh measures do, because benefits are inadequate to maintain a decent living standard for the children of Wales.
And Minister, I’m pleased to hear, as I mentioned in my contribution, about the measures that are in place to try and reach this goal. It’s strange to hear that you don’t agree with the view of the expert group, which was appointed by the Government to look at measures that would help to alleviate child poverty, in terms of the cost of providing free school meals for everyone who receives universal credit. And it's difficult to hear you mention additional infrastructure costs, because that is something that they say, and the Bevan Foundation say, would not cause a problem on the same scale in secondary schools as it has in primary schools.
I've talked about the impact of child poverty in three debates this afternoon. Several Members have drawn attention to this—yes, indeed, it's groundhog day. And that shows the extent of the problem and the severity of the problem and the failure of both Governments at both ends of the M4 to prioritise the problem adequately. I and Plaid Cymru will continue to raise this issue at every opportunity, and will be pleased to do so, because this for us is the greatest cause of our time and the greatest responsibility of politicians.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There are objections. We will therefore defer voting until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

8. Voting Time

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: That brings us to voting time. Unless three Members wish for the bell to be rung, we will proceed directly to the vote.
So, we will move to our first vote this afternoon, which will be on the Welsh Conservatives debate under item 6 on PISA results. I call for a vote on the motion without amendment, tabled in the name of Darren Millar. Open the vote. Close the vote. [Interruption.] Does the Minister for health have a technical problem? That vote has been closed. The result is as follows: 14 in favour, no abstentions and 34 against. Therefore, the motion is not agreed.

Item 6. Welsh Conservatives Debate - PISA results. Motion without amendment, tabled in the name of Darren Millar: For: 14, Against: 34, Abstain: 0
Motion has been rejectedClick to see vote results

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Can I confirm that voting is now working for the Minister for health? It is. We'll move on.
The next vote is on amendment 1, tabled in the name of Lesley Griffiths. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be deselected. Open the vote on amendment 1. Close the vote. In favour 26, no abstentions, 23 against. Therefore, amendment 1 is agreed. And amendment 2 is deselected.

Item 6. Welsh Conservatives Debate - PISA results. Amendment 1, tabled in the name of Lesley Griffiths: For: 26, Against: 23, Abstain: 0
Amendment has been agreedClick to see vote results

Amendment 2 deselected.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: We will now move to a vote on the motion as amended by amendment 1.

Motion NDM8447 as amended:
To propose that the Senedd:
1. Notes the 2022 Programme for International Student Assessment (PISA) results, published on 5 December 2023.
2. Notes that the pandemic impacted on PISA scores across the world.
3. Recognises that Wales saw improvement in literacy and numeracy in PISA 2018, however that progress has declined since the pandemic.
4. Welcomes:
a) the launch of literacy and numeracy plans to raise standards in these key areas;
b) funding to support learners with Additional Learning Needs has significantly increased over recent years and has been protected in the draft budget;
c) that online Personalised Assessments are used in schools across Wales to support teaching and learning, and data from the assessments will be published annually to track progress; and
d) the establishment of a National Attendance Taskforce to support schools in improving attendance rates.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 25, no abstentions, 24 against. And therefore the motion as amended is agreed.

Item 6. Welsh Conservatives Debate - PISA results. Motion as amended: For: 25, Against: 24, Abstain: 0
Motion as amended has been agreedClick to see vote results

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: The next votes are on the Plaid Cymru debate on child poverty and educational attainment. I call for a vote on the motion without amendment, tabled in the name of Heledd Fychan. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 10, no abstentions, 39 against. Therefore, the motion is not agreed.

Item 7. Plaid Cymru Debate: Child poverty and educational attainment. Motion without amendment, tabled in the name of Heledd Fychan: For: 10, Against: 39, Abstain: 0
Motion has been rejected.Click to see vote results

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: We will now vote on amendment 1. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendments 2, 3, 4 and 5 will be deselected. I call for a vote on amendment 1, tabled in the name of Lesley Griffiths. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 25, no abstentions, 24 against. Therefore, amendment 1 is agreed and amendments 2, 3, 4 and 5 are deselected.

Item 7. Plaid Cymru Debate: Child poverty and educational attainment. Amendment 1, tabled in the name of Lesley Griffiths: For: 25, Against: 24, Abstain: 0
Amendment has been agreedClick to see vote results

Amendments 2, 3, 4 and 5 deselected.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: The final vote is, therefore, on the motion as amended by amendment 1.

Motion NDM8445as amended:
To propose that the Senedd:
1. Notes that 28 per cent of children in Wales are living in poverty.
2. Notes the correlation between child poverty and the education attainment gap.
3. Notes the latest PISA results and national report which showed that 11 per cent of learners in Wales had missed a meal because of poverty.
4. Believes high quality teaching and learning is the most important school-based factor in tackling the impact of poverty on attainment.
Welcomes:
a) a sharper focus in Initial Teacher Training on the range of approaches to teaching and learning that are needed to tackle the impact of poverty on learner experiences and outcomes.
b) the protection in the draft budget of the Pupil Development Grant and new guidance to support schools to better target this funding.
c) the work undertaken by the Welsh Government’s Attainment Champions in sharing their experiences of tackling the impacts of poverty on attainment, and the intention to build on this.
d) the role Community Focused Schools can play in supporting parents and families to become engaged in children’s learning, and to develop the home learning environment.
e) programmes such as Schools Essentials and the School Holiday Enrichment Programme that provide invaluable support to reduce the cost of living for families.
6. Notes that the PISA results found education in Wales to be more equitable than the OECD average and other UK countries, with the attainment gap between more disadvantaged learners and less disadvantaged learners smaller.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 25, no abstentions, 24 against. Therefore, the motion is agreed.

Item 7. Plaid Cymru Debate: Child poverty and educational attainment. Motion as amended: For: 25, Against: 24, Abstain: 0
Motion as amended has been agreedClick to see vote results

9. Short Debate: Fail to plan, plan to fail—Why Wales needs a planning overhaul

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: That concludes voting, but we do have another debate this evening, and that's the short debate under item 9. Introducing the short debate this evening will be Mabon ap Gwynfor. You can make a start once Members have left the Chamber relatively quietly.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: Thank you, Llywydd, and I'm delighted to open this debate. I've allowed some time to Carolyn Thomas and Peredur Owen Griffiths at the end. When I was elected to Denbighshire County Council some years ago, one of the first things that the council had to do was to review its local development plan. The LDP was adopted at the beginning of the second decade of this century after many years of consultation and discussion in the face of strong opposition from the county council at the time. The original evidence from specialists in the county and wider region showed that 50 per cent of the homes in the plan would need to be affordable homes. This was rejected by officials on the basis that such a plan would not be agreed by the Planning Inspectorate and the Government. The percentage was brought down to 30 per cent therefore, and the council submitted the plan to the Government, with the objective that 30 per cent of the homes would be affordable. However, the Planning Inspectorate and Government rejected this and enforced an LDP with only 10 per cent of homes being affordable, partly for the reason that an LDP with 30 per cent of affordable homes, never mind the 50 per cent originally proposed, wouldn't be appealing to developers. The proposal was passed before my election, but, as I mentioned, we were required to review the plan. The LDP is a large and complex document and it's difficult for most lay people to process it all. I don't recall the details in full, but, in the case of the review of the LDP, there were around just 20 responses to the consultation and I was the only county councillor to respond. Every one of the other respondents were developers.
And this brings me immediately to my greatest complaint in this debate, namely the fact that the planning system here in Wales has been created to favour developers, not communities. The most prominent and recent example of this is the case of Wrexham County Borough Council. Now, in theory, an LDP reflects the aspirations of the democratic body and the democratic body takes ownership of the plan by adopting it. That's the theory at least, but things couldn't be further from the truth in action, because, as we saw in the case of Denbighshire council and now in Wrexham's case, it's not a democratic document.

The Deputy Presiding Officer took the Chair.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: In Wrexham's case, the council refused to adopt the development plan several times because they felt it didn't answer the needs of the communities they represented, but, nevertheless, they were forced to adopt it in the face of threats of going to jail if they failed to adopt it. This is meant to be a plan designed and owned by the democratic body, but threatening politicians with jail for refusing to support a policy is not democracy. These are the actions of a tinpot despot. It's certainly not healthy and not how a democracy should function. And why did this reach such a contentious point in Wrexham? Because a cabal of large developers took the council to court for failing to adopt a development plan. This tells us everything we need to know about the planning system in Wales. It's not designed in the interests of our communities, but rather is there for the benefit of large developers who want to extract as much profit as they can at the expense of our natural wealth and communities.
This shouldn't come as a surprise. Like with many Governments, the Welsh Government have used the planning system and development as an economic driver. Development is seen as a key part of the economy and central to their ambitions for economic growth. 'It creates jobs', 'construction is one of the main industries', 'it generates economic activity' and all of the other buzzwords that you can think of with economic bingo. But it's all a mirage. Firstly, we need to move on from this false belief that economic growth is what leads to a successful society. Good economists will explain clearly that an economy is not the financialisation of everything, but instead an economy is made up of community, culture and everything else that makes up the societies and communities that we live in, both tangible and intangible, but I digress. The idea that development can be an economic driver has failed. We have a record number of people on housing waiting lists, record numbers of people in temporary accommodation, a record number of people living in overcrowded houses. People, those who we are here to serve and represent, are suffering. Developers haven't stepped in and resolved the housing crisis because, frankly, it's not in their interest to do so.
Developers aren't interested in answering the demand. There is a huge demand for one-bed or two-bed properties, for bungalows, but what we get are soulless four-bed, so-called 'executive homes' on identikit estates, and post development, we suffer long arguments about who maintains or adopts the roads, and complaints of lack of access to services, but, by then, the developers have walked away having delivered to their shareholders, with the local authority left to pick up the pieces. All the while, the homes are sold for eye-watering prices and the buyers tie themselves into a generation of mortgage repayments with billions of pounds of hard-earned money flooding out of the local economy, paying for the lavish lifestyle of distant fat cats at the expense of our communities. Little thought is given to the needs of the actual people and communities. Yes, there is a tiny percentage of so-called 'affordable homes', section 106s, and in some cases empty promises of link roads, school contributions and the like. But, often, we see promises of retail or educational or recreational facilities disappear because they suddenly become unaffordable for the developers—unaffordable, that is, after paying out dividends to shareholders.
Let's look again at Wrexham. Following the forced adoption of the LDP there, there are plans to develop 455 homes on Mold Road. The health board made representations to the planning committee stating that they have, and I quote,
'significant concerns about the sustainability of local Primary Care services if the proposal goes ahead and about the physical space available within current Primary Care facilities to accommodate more patients in the area, as well as clinical staffing concerns.'

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: And here we are—here's a clear picture of how the planning system doesn't work for people. Now, I've mentioned in the past that I've had the privilege of going on research trips to communities across Europe to see how they address planning and housing, and one of the most striking is Vienna.
The system in Vienna is entirely contrary to what we have here. In Vienna, there are expert committees related to health, education, transport, nature and biodiversity, and others, which are assembled as developments are put forward in order to consider whether the plans are in keeping with the aspirations of the city and meet the needs of elected members. If there is no certainty of health or education provision, for example, then those plans will not be agreed. This is a planning system that puts the needs of people and communities at its heart. This is so very different to the system here in Wales, but it's no surprise, because the planning system here in Wales is based on planning legislation brought in by Margaret Thatcher, such as the Town and Country Planning Act 1990. The whole ethos of the planning system here is based on individualism, looking at people's ability to get planning permission, rather than looking at the needs of communities and how we can use planning to meet those needs. We have to turn the current system on its head, and rather than put developers at its heart and giving them the right to appeal, we have to start from the bottom up by empowering communities and building communities.
In looking at any development, be it a house, a shop or whatever it may be, we have to ask ourselves what part this development will play in that community. Is the community resilient enough to take that development? What needs to be done in order to make the community more resilient? To this end, we have to have development plans that are far more flexible and based on live, reliable data. It's interesting to note that the current LDPs will be in place for over 20 years, but they are based on population predictions made many years previously and which have proved to be entirely inaccurate.
In the south-east and north-east of Wales, there's a risk of overdevelopment, with these developments being out of keeping and not meeting the needs of local people, whilst, in the west, we see a shortage of development and depopulation. We must have development plans that tie into policy areas in other aspects of life. And one reason why there is a lack of development in west Wales is because of a lack of investment in infrastructure. That should be central to any LDP or regional development plan. And the rural housing enabler system that we have in parts in Wales should be used and developed to be community housing enablers, gathering live data and enabling this information to feed into the LDP in order to have plans that enable development that is in keeping with needs.
But, essentially, we need to get rid of the current system and establish a planning system that puts people and communities at its heart. I look forward, therefore, to hearing the Minister's response.

Carolyn Thomas AS: Diolch, Mabon, for a minute of your time. We are in a climate and nature emergency. All developers should be installing solar panels on roofs, building well-insulated and lifetime homes, installing water butts, planting for biodiversity, and being mindful of heavy rainfall and drought periods. Health, education, community facilities and public transport need to grow at the same time as housing developments. Through 106 planning conditions and community infrastructure levers, a year's free bus pass could be given to residents of new developments to trial the local bus for a year to see if they like it. We should be building for the future and we should be building for communities.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: I thank Mabon for allowing me to speak in this debate this afternoon. Before I start, I'd like to declare an interest as I've just submitted a planning application for a garden shed, but I don't want to talk about that.
I do want to support what Mabon has said, but I also want to pursue another aspect.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: I'd like to see animal welfare being incorporated into any planning application. The context behind this call is that the last remaining dog track in Wales lies in my region. It recently applied for planning permission to extend the facilities, allowing more events to be held at this venue. As you can imagine, animal welfare groups were deeply opposed to such an expansion, as were I and many Plaid Cymru colleagues, as well as others in this Chamber. Many of us have called for this so-called sport to be banned in Wales. Unfortunately, despite legitimate concerns about the implications the expansion of the track and its facilities would have for animal welfare, we could not prevent permission being granted for the planning application. Less compelling means of opposing the application within planning guidance were the only options, and, in the end, planning permission for expansion was granted behind closed doors by planning officers. This seems to be a real anomaly and one that I would like to be corrected in any overhaul in the future. Diolch yn fawr.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: I call on the Minister for Climate Change to reply to the debate—Julie James.

Julie James AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I very much welcome the opportunity to debate the Welsh planning system today, but I do not, however, accept the proposition on which the debate is based, or many of the comments, I'm afraid, that have been made earlier. The Welsh planning system, unlike that of our nearest neighbour, is not failing—[Inaudible.]—requiring improvement, such as the local—[Inaudible.]—planning services, both of which I will return to later. The planning system isn't—[Inaudible.]

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Minister, atthe moment, we seem to be having—

Julie James AC: [Inaudible.]—policy intervention.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Minister, at the moment we're having slight trouble with your transmission. You're breaking up quite a bit. Shall we try again? The last sentence.

Julie James AC: Okay, where did you get to? Was I just talking about the climate and nature emergencies? Did you hear that?

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: No.

Julie James AC: Okay. I'll start again, shall I?

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Yes, I think if you start from scratch, it would probably be best.

Julie James AC: Okay. I'll try again. My computer is telling me I have full internet and there's no delay on my side, so I don't know what's happening, I'm afraid. Okay. So, I'll start again, Dirprwy Lywydd.
I welcome the opportunity to debate the Welsh planning system today. I don't, however, accept the proposition on which the debate is based, or many of the comments that have been made during the submissions earlier. The Welsh planning system, unlike that of our nearest neighbour, is not failing. Of course, there are areas that require improvements, such as local delivery of planning services and planning legislation, both of which I will return to later. The planning system is an essential public policy intervention—[Inaudible.]—the big issues of the day, including the climate and nature emergencies, and helps meet the housing needs of the most vulnerable in our society.
The Welsh planning system has been on a long and complex journey since devolution. We have been consistent in our support of the planning system, and fully endorse the need to intervene in the market in the public interest. We also appreciate and support everyone responsible for the operation of the planning system, which, as we all know, can be a very challenging task. Under our stewardship, we have much to celebrate about the Welsh planning system.
Prior to devolution, the Welsh planning system was typified by a top-tail-and-translate approach, which blindly adopted policy designed for England and applied it to Wales. Under devolution, we have skilfully crafted our own comprehensive planning policy, designed in Wales for the benefit of the people of Wales. This cutting-edge approach to planning policy has indeed now been replicated by Scotland and, most recently, even in England. 'Planning Policy Wales' has stood the test of time well, with edition 12 due to be published imminently. A respected expert on planning policy, Hugh Ellis, has contrasted the approaches to planning policy between Wales and England, noting that whilst Welsh policy is based on logic and principles, English policy has eyes firmly fixed on the floor.
The logic and principles upon which we base Welsh planning policy flow directly from the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015, and are exemplified through our approach to placemaking, a holistic perspective on planning to achieve multiple benefits. For example, it is not acceptable in Wales just to consider the number of houses that we build; rather, all housing must be high quality, sustainably located and make a net benefit to biodiversity.
We apply our planning policies in innovative ways, providing the leadership necessary to address the biggest challenges that we face as a nation. Nowhere is this more evident than in respect of energy. We have introduced an energy hierarchy for planning, which prioritises renewable forms of energy and supports a just transition away from fossil fuels. We have not shied away from making difficult decisions, being consistent in our support for renewable energy, including onshore wind. Through technical advice note 8, and latterly 'Future Wales', we have sought to direct windfarm proposals to the most appropriate locations. Our leadership in this area contrasts markedly with the de facto ban on onshore windfarms operating until very recently in England, which has reduced UK energy security and added around £182 to the energy bill of each UK household. This is a very clear example of where political expediency has trumped the wider public interest in England.
Our policies reflect the diversity of Wales. We require local authorities to undertake local housing market assessments to address their housing needs, focusing in particular on the need to increase the supply of social housing. We have legislated to ensure the Welsh language is a material consideration for planning purposes, and support the identification of areas for local market housing and the control of additional second homes and short-term holiday lets. We recognise the distinctiveness of rural areas and allow for policy flexibility when it comes to new dwellings for rural enterprises, retiring farmers, and One Planet developments.
We have a highly effective policy framework in Wales of which we all must be rightly proud. However, I fully appreciate that the framework is only successful where there is effective implementation at the local level. We implement our policies through a plan-led approach to development. The Welsh Government provides effective strategic leadership in this area through 'Future Wales: The National Plan 2040', which all strategic and local development plans must be in conformity with. Whilst I am disappointed that local planning authorities have not yet started work on the required strategic development plans, we do now have complete coverage of local development plans and that is something to celebrate.
Local development plans require consistent and effective local political leadership to deliver. They provide the firm, rational and consistent basis for new planning decisions. Not to adopt and keep under review a local development plan would be an abdication of the primary responsibility of a local planning authority. As with many public services, COVID has cast a long shadow over the review of local development plans, with a number of delivery agreements requiring extension, as it was impossible to carry out effective public consultation with COVID controls in place. I am pleased to see progress once again being made on LDP reviews and urge local planning authorities to accelerate their work on them. And whilst the shadow of COVID is having a declining impact on the Welsh planning system, the impact of austerity imposed on us by the UK Conservative Government continues to intensify.
Planning is one of the hardest hit areas of local authority activity, with Audit Wales identifying a reduction since 2008-09 in planning budgets of 50 per cent in real terms, considering inflation. Net expenditure has fallen from £45 million in 2008-09 to £22.8 million in 2017-18. The biggest cut has been to development control budgets, where spend has reduced by 59 per cent. Given the continuing impact of austerity, further reductions in expenditure will have taken place since then. While some of the impacts of austerity can be mitigated by increasing planning application fees, the degree to which planning application fees would need to be increased would be significant. For applications for minor household development such as larger extensions, application fees will need to increase from £230 to over £500 to achieve full cost recovery. Increases in fees of that magnitude must be accompanied by a firm and unequivocal local commitment to improve performance and retain planning application fees within the planning service. I will be launching a consultation on planning application fees and performance expectations later on this year.
One area where immediate and essential improvement could be made though is through enhanced collaboration between local planning authorities. We've already mandated the preparation of strategic development plans and regional transport plans, which should be based on joint evidence and be prepared in parallel. Both plans will be prepared by the corporate joint committees and subject to the same governance arrangements. Enhanced collaboration should not be limited to SDPs and RTPs. LDPs can also be prepared jointly and the decision not to press ahead with a review of the joint LDP covering Gwynedd and Ynys Môn can only be regarded as a retrograde step.
We must seriously address the question whether retaining 25 local planning authorities is a sustainable position, given the declining professional and financial resources available—[Inaudible.]—imposed austerity. Collaboration, including joint service provision is an area where we can learn from our English neighbours. At the very minimum, local planning authorities must actively explore joint provision of specialist provisions in areas such as biodiversity and urban design advice. This will help to increase service resilience and provide a clear professional career pathway.
Senedd Cymru must also play a full and constructive role in improving the Welsh planning system. The Infrastructure (Wales) Bill is currently before the Senedd. If agreed it will provide a modern, flexible consenting framework for devolved infrastructure projects in Wales. The infrastructure Bill will be followed rapidly by a Bill to consolidate Welsh planning law. The fully bilingual legislation will simplify the complex planning statute book, and bring an end to joint Wales and England planning legislation, marking the most significant milestone on the planning journey since devolution.
In conclusion, we should all take away three key messages from this debate. Firstly, we have a comprehensive planning framework made in Wales, for the people of Wales, that is highly regarded. Secondly, we have a complete coverage of development plans at national and local level allowing rational and consistent decision making, something we should celebrate. And finally, we will continue to champion our planning system and will work to mitigate the worst impacts of Tory-imposed austerity on this essential and vital public service. Diolch.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Thank you, Minister, and that brings today's proceedings to a close.

The meeting ended at 19:39.

QNR

Questions to the Economy Minister

Ken Skates: Will the Minister make a statement on the performance of the Development Bank of Wales?

Vaughan Gething: Half-year results issued by the bank show it is making strong progress, making 239 investments totalling £51 million—investments that are creating and safeguarding 1,718 jobs. The bank continues to play a vital role in helping businesses across Wales access the finance needed to develop, grow and progress sustainability goals.

Mabon ap Gwynfor: Will the Minister provide an update on digital connectivity in Dwyfor Meirionnydd?

Vaughan Gething: Our full-fibre roll-out with Openreach has delivered gigabit capable broadband to 2,665 properties in Dwyfor Meirionnydd, plus further consequential premises. Our ABC scheme has provided broadband to 243 premises in the last three years. We also work with UK Government and Ambition North Wales projects to improve digital connectivity.

Carolyn Thomas: What assessment has the Welsh Government made of the role of creative industries in developing the North Wales economy?

Vaughan Gething: We know the creative industries have the potential to contribute significant economic growth across Wales. Creative Wales has a strategic ambition to grow the creative industries in north Wales with the aim to replicate the success of the growth in the south-east capital region.

Samuel Kurtz: What action is the Welsh Government taking to address employment skills shortages in Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire?

Vaughan Gething: We are working in collaboration with industry, business, learning providers and key stakeholders to increase our skills capacity across Wales. This will help grow a skilled and diverse workforce to meet our future economy needs.

Questions to the Minister for Health and Social Services

Peredur Owen Griffiths: How is the Government increasing the availability of NHS dentistry in South Wales East?

Eluned Morgan: The reform of the dental contract is designed to improve access for patients in Wales. Additional investment, financial incentives and diversification of the profession have been implemented to improve access in a sustainable way for patients and practices.

Joyce Watson: Will the Minister provide an update on the development of a women's health plan?

Eluned Morgan: Preparatory work for the women’s health plan is under way, building on the discovery report. It is imperative that the approach to development ensures the changes required are delivered and the desired positive impacts realised. That is why the plan will be designed and delivered by the women’s health network, due to be established in April 2024.

Hefin David: Will the Minister provide an update on the Welsh Government's plans for the future of GP practices?

Eluned Morgan: We have substantially increased the number of general practitionertrainees and direct patient care staff, improving access to services. We continue to work with health boards and the profession to ensure a safe and sustainable future for general practice in local communities across Wales.

Questions to the Deputy Minister for Mental Health and Wellbeing

Jack Sargeant: How is the Minister working to improve mental health outcomes in Wales?

Lynne Neagle: Our aim is to ensure a sustainable mental health system, supported by a diverse workforce across health and social care to improve outcomes in mental health services. Our strategic workforce plan, the new mental health resource in the NHS executive and our forthcoming mental health strategy will help achieve this.